Building a B2B Content Marketing Strategy: A Conversation With Jon Wuebben

Welcome to the podcast. I’m Shane Barker, your host of Shane Barker’s Marketing Madness Podcast. Today, we’re going to discuss B2B content marketing strategies. My guest, Jon Wuebben, is the CEO of Content Launch, a content marketing software company. He’s been in the content marketing industry for over 15 years and aims to make life easier for content marketers. He’s also the bestselling author of three books and frequently speaks about content marketing and its future. Listen as he shares valuable tips about B2B content marketing.

Hey guys, what’s going on? We’ve got John on the podcast today. Really excited to have him. And Jon, once again, thanks for having us today.

Absolutely, man, absolutely. So let’s start off with the basics here. Whenever I do these types of interviews, I always like to begin with your early days—where you grew up. Let’s start with Little Jon before we get into Big Jon. So tell me, what was your childhood like? Where did you grow up? Give me some background.

So 4-H was like—that’s kind of like farming, right? Isn’t that heavy in farming? Like, I remember that because I went to Elk Grove High School here, well outside of Sacramento, and there was a 4-H club. There were a lot of farmers and stuff. So that was, like, the sheep and the cattle and stuff. That was really interesting. Like, obviously the State Fair being there, there was a lot of exposure to that as well. That’s interesting.

You know, it’s funny when you talk about that because I didn’t really start speaking well. I had a class in college that I think I tried to skip every day I had to go—but I went because I knew I needed to go, right?

But I think it’s awesome that you did that, probably without even realizing how valuable it was—just getting up in front of people at such a young age. It’s similar to teaching a child another language early; they soak it up and remember it much longer. It’s interesting.

Not that your family put you in there thinking, “Hey, down the road, Jon will be speaking publicly one day.” But the idea of being in front of a crowd, dealing with anxiety—I’ve talked about this quite a bit, the fear of public speaking, the way people look terrified. I’m not saying I wasn’t nervous at all during my first few speeches. Even today, I still get a little nervousness, which I think is healthy.

So starting at the ripe young age of 12, getting out there in front of people—that’s awesome, definitely. And you said you had a pretty big family. How many did you say? Four or five brothers and sisters?

That’s awesome. Do you guys meet up for Christmas and all that fun stuff? Does everybody get back together for Thanksgiving?

Man, I must have missed the invite. I was checking my inbox the whole time. So, I guess from here on out, I’ll be invited to all the Christmas parties. I’d be part of that.

Well, that’s cool. Tell us—I mean, obviously, I think 4-H is a really interesting fact about you. Tell us something else, maybe something our audience who’s familiar with you doesn’t already know. Give me an interesting fact or something. In the past, we’ve had some pretty crazy stuff.

For example, there was a gentleman, Aaron, that I interviewed. He was a fireman for a year and a half, and you’d never guess it. He didn’t really seem like the fireman type. Then he told me, “Yeah, I was a fireman for a year and a half.” I asked him, “Why did you do that?” and he said, “I don’t know, I just wanted to see if I could do it.”

He was a content marketer, then became a fireman, and then went back to content marketing. So, do you have any fun facts or anything interesting from growing up?

So how does that even work? I’m just trying to think of, like—I mean, obviously it’s like anything else. You just start doing it, then you gradually get better and better and start understanding how to format songs. I wouldn’t even know where to start.

So did you say you started playing the piano? Did you take lessons, or was it just something you figured out?

Okay, so your next level—like, I don’t have the attention span to learn the piano. I mean, I probably could, but it would be difficult for me. They would probably have to medicate me. I’m more of, like—the guitar I’ve always wanted to play, or maybe the piano, just something to be a little creative on that side. Maybe one day, maybe next time we talk, I’ll be playing an instrument at your guys’ place.

So tell me—Brian Wilson. I saw a movie about him, I can’t remember the name of it. I was traveling somewhere, and I didn’t know enough about The Beach Boys. My mom was a hippie and loved The Beach Boys, and I grew up in California as well. But that movie really blew me away.

It’s the classic story of becoming famous, and then somebody comes along who steals your money—not exactly steals, but you know what I mean. It’s this cycle that pulls you in. It’s an interesting story. And off-topic a bit, but being a celebrity and dealing with those types of things—like, you don’t know who’s there genuinely supporting you and who’s there to take advantage.

It’s kind of like, “Who do you keep on your team?” And I just saw “Bohemian Rhapsody,” and it’s the same kind of deal, right? Great movie, but kind of the same theme. So is that one of the things you knew about Brian Wilson beforehand, or did you see the movie?

Yeah, I watched that movie, and it was just one of those—I mean, I think we’re going to see more of those types of movies about The Beatles or other musicians, right? Stories about old-school music, classic music. I was intrigued by that story as well. Like I said before, I was just interested in the music.

Then I saw that movie, and I thought, wow. I watched it on a flight somewhere, and I don’t usually watch a lot of movies. But when I’m stuck on a plane without Wi-Fi, that’s kind of my way of getting stuff done, focusing, you know?

So are you still in San Diego? Are you still in the San Diego area?

Yeah, I’ve got family members in Carlsbad. It’s beautiful out there—a beautiful area.

And then where did you go to college? Give me a little background.

So this is too funny—I actually do know Chico, because I used to own a bar there. It was called PF 126. It used to be right next to Pizza Face.

I knew the owner there, Peter, and we partnered up. I opened up Chevy’s—not my restaurant, but I opened it up a long time ago. Man, how many years ago now? I flew in from Sacramento; I was from Sacramento, but this was another life. I worked at Chevy’s, opened it up, and trained all the employees and managers. Then I decided, “You know, I’m gonna finish up school here.”

That’s when I met Peter, who was opening Pizza Face. Small world, right? Then he wanted to add a bar onto it, which used to be Hey Juan’s back in the day. Long story, but it’s funny.

And the crazier part—I love Chico State, but my thing was, since I went there a little later in life (in my 20s), I always told myself, “If my son or daughter, whoever I have in the future, I’m not letting them go to Chico.” I loved Chico, but it was a little crazy, you know? I thought, “You’ve got to go through some stuff in life before going there.”

And I’m not kidding you—my son went to Jesuit High School here in Sacramento, and then comes to me and says, “I want to go to Chico State,” right out of the gate. I’m like, “Oh my gosh!” It was just one of those things—I’m not going to tell him no. He was looking at Arizona and some other colleges, but he wanted Chico. He’s there now; this is his second year, and he’s really enjoying it.

And then Thunderbird, right? My niece Jessica actually went to Thunderbird. She graduated maybe two years ago. Yeah, she first went to—what’s that big college right in Malibu? Pepperdine. She went to Pepperdine and then to Thunderbird, so that’s interesting. We’ve definitely got some tie-ins here.

Well, that’s cool. As we go through this, I know you’ve worked for several big companies, and a few of them really stand out—particularly Kia and Ford. Maybe not the biggest companies in the world, but definitely major ones, right? How did that happen? I mean, obviously, you get out of college, so talk a bit about what you studied, and how you ended up transitioning into working for Kia and Ford.

Gotcha. And you mentioned a little voice in your head—like a Brian Wilson kind of voice? No, I’m just kidding. Sorry, terrible, right?

Cool. So that’s when you transitioned from Ford. Obviously, your goal there was clear. When you went to Kia, did you have a similar goal in mind? Did you already know you wanted to start your own business eventually? Because it seems like you’re someone who always has clear objectives, thinking, “I want to play piano, so I learn it.”

I’m guessing there was some planning involved. How do you approach goal-setting? Do you set yearly goals, monthly goals, or have a vision board? Like, “I want to be the CMO for Ford,” or is it more spontaneous? Tell me about that process.

And it’s funny, because when you say it, it sounds very simplistic, but I think a lot of people don’t do that. They think, “Listen, I’m good at these three things, but I need to pick up three new things I’m not good at and become better at those.” Right? Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn’t.

It’s kind of like hiring—at least that’s how I look at it, and I’ve learned this over probably the last 10 years, having been in digital marketing for about 20 years. What I’ve realized is that I’ve made lists of things I need to get done, but then I look at them and think, “What do I actually enjoy doing, and what do I have to be there for?”

If I’m speaking at an event, obviously I can’t clone myself—yet, at least. Maybe someday somebody will clone Shane, thank God, or maybe replace Shane with an AI robot. That’s kind of freaky. But right now, emails, outreach, and similar tasks—I don’t necessarily have to handle all of that myself, assuming I have a team.

I think that’s what’s interesting about it. It really comes down to figuring out what you need to do, what you’re good at, and where you want to spend your time. Right? Your time is valuable; it’s about where you choose to focus it. If you don’t want to spend your time on certain tasks, there are plenty of people out there who can do that work.

Finding those individuals is crucial, and I’ve learned this lesson—the hard lesson of delegation. As entrepreneurs, we often start off wanting control over everything, thinking, “I’ve got to do it all myself.” But over time, when you look at your to-do list and realize it’s just getting longer, you recognize the importance of outsourcing and delegation.

When you say, “This is what I’m really strong at,” you’re better off letting someone else handle what you’re not as strong at. I’m comfortable being strong at certain things and acknowledging where I’m not strong. That’s not my goal—to be strong at everything—because when you’re strong at 10 things, you’re actually not truly strong at any of them. Then you’re not really focusing on what you’re genuinely good at.

Well, it is. But I think what people miss out on—what they miss about the 10,000 hours. I mean if for example someone wanted to have abs. Like, instead of a seven-second ab machine, they want the three-second ab machine, right? They want to skip the hard work. But there’s really no shortcut.

We talked earlier about AI and all that stuff. In my mind, AI isn’t ever fully going to replace us, because there’s still the human interaction factor, and also the time you have to invest to reach a certain level. You and I didn’t get here overnight—we’ve been doing it a long time. That’s something people often miss.

Another thing I’ve learned through this process: I always tell people, when I worked with older companies, I had executive-level people worried about giving away our secrets. I’d always say, “Listen, it’s not that easy. You can’t just steal my form and replicate my business overnight. There’s knowledge and experience behind it—those 10,000 hours.”

When you finally reach a certain point, you realize, “Oh, wow, I’m actually here.” And something else I’ve noticed: during my speaking engagements and workshops, that’s when I really understand how much knowledge I’ve accumulated. For example, I sometimes think, “Everyone must already know this stuff.” Then, when you share it, you realize many people don’t. That’s the moment it hits you—you’re onto something, you really have invested that time. You’ve put in those 10,000-plus hours, right?

And that comes back to writing—your “10 things.” If I hate writing, guess what? Jon loves writing. Tracy loves writing. That’s where we look at outsourcing the tasks we don’t enjoy. It’s amazing these days, especially with the internet. The world really is your oyster. You can find somebody to write or do a website—you can find someone to do almost anything.

Back in the day, you had to do everything yourself. I always think about that. When I started my businesses about 20 years ago, I wonder, “How did I do that without the internet?” I’m trying to remember—did I call people? How did I source products? I was importing products back then, and even now, I’m still trying to wrap my head around how I made those connections. It was difficult, totally different than today.

Now it’s crazy. I talked to my son about this. He’s at Chico State, and he’s excited about industry, business, and doing all these things—stuff I’m proud and excited about too—but it’s just a completely different deal now. He tells me about all these opportunities and companies, and it’s just crazy. You can make money in 10,000 different ways now, and that’s what’s so interesting to me.

Of course, it’s a bit tougher when you have ADHD, because then you’re looking at those 10,000 ways of making money, right? I’m not heavily medicated, but maybe I could use a little help focusing sometimes. But it’s interesting to have so many options today. Still, I think focusing on one thing and investing those 10,000 hours is highly recommended.

So, back in—was it 2004 when you started Content Launch?

Gotcha. And so what do you guys do? Give us a little rundown. I mean, obviously it sounds like writing services, but give me a little rundown of what you guys do.

That’s awesome. So you guys obviously developed that yourself. How long ago did you develop the software?

Yeah, no software ever comes out perfect, right? You always think, “Oh, this is great, this is awesome,” but then you send it out to the wolves—to the sharks—and reality hits. It can be brutal. But that’s just part of the process. You have to put the idea out there in beta, get constructive criticism, see what needs to change, and then make those iterations.

So your platform—is it accessible? If I’m producing content, can I use it myself? Is it open to anyone, or do you just use it internally? Or is it available to the whole world?

And is the rumor true that anybody that interviews you for a podcast, they get free access? I mean, that’s what I’ve heard. I don’t know if that’s true?

Because my team was like, “Who should we interview?” And I said, “Listen, I heard rumors that I could get access to Content Launch if we interview him.” And they’re like, “Are you serious?” And I said, “Listen, I don’t know if the rumors are true, but I’m going to find out.” Honestly, I feel like we could just shut the podcast down right now—the dishes are done. I had one goal today…

We’re done. That’s awesome. So tell us a little bit—
I mean, guys, three books. You have three best-selling books. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about that?

Like, first of all, you’re a huge writer, right? You obviously love doing that. I’m asking partly for the audience, but mostly for me—because I’ve been starting, honestly, starting my book. And that’s the keyword: starting.

I’ve got some good stuff going, but it’s just so hard for me. I don’t know what it is. I’m not a bad writer—I do a lot of writing, and I have a team now—but still, man, just… how do you pump out three? That would take me, like, 700 years at this pace. Maybe eight years, potentially.

That’s awesome. So two months, it’s your first book. So how long, did it really took you two months to write it?

So did you have a limit on the amount of coffee that you would drink? Or would you go 10, 15, cups all in or, I mean, give me the…

That’s a good combo. Did you ever go to Coffees Anonymous or no? I heard rumors about this. I could have started that.

Just so you know, I’d love to join—because even though I don’t usually need coffee, in the mornings, I’m always having it. At my office, my employees are always laughing because I do these little “micro-doses.” I’ll just go in and squeeze out a tiny bit of coffee. I don’t want to reheat it or let it get cold—I just like to keep it warm and fresh. I usually go until about 2 p.m., and that’s when I start to taper off. I try to balance it out with water too—little hydration with a little caffeination. Never a bad thing.

So, okay—your first book only took two months, which honestly makes me feel terrible inside because it’s taken me, like, 40 years to get mine going.

What about your second and third books? And they’re all about content, right? All in that space?

Awesome. And what about—I mean, that’s okay. So then the third one—so you’re…

I mean, I was kind of looking at this as I was, as we were, before we started talking: what about the political side? So it looks like you’ve worked with a few different political folks as well. Like, how do you—well, you just—you, I don’t know, you’re kind of blowing me away.

Because there’s always like, there’s—like, more layers to this onion than I’ve seen with most people I’ve interviewed. You work with John McCain, and it kind of gives me, like… what—you start working with, like, political folks?

In regards to this, you’re obviously a good writer, so I’m assuming that played in somehow.

That’s awesome. Yeah, it’s kind of crazy. That’s what I love about my podcast. I mean, yeah, we talk about content, but it’s also the story.

Like, I’m always interested, intrigued by people’s stories, because it’s like—I mean, I would—obviously, we don’t know each other, other than this podcast today, but it’s just interesting to hear your background.

Like, how did you start working with John McCain? Because I’ve heard that from someone who worked with him, that validated that, that he was an awesome person. That he did good things. So it’s kind of cool to hear.

Huge honor, for sure. But everything happens for a reason, and that was definitely a cool moment.

Let’s switch gears a bit. You do a lot of speaking—conferences, summits, that kind of thing.

How did that start? I think you touched on it a bit, how you were raised and started speaking early.

But how did you get into the conference scene? And why? Was it to talk about your book, or was there another reason for jumping into the speaking scene?

That’s awesome. I think that’s the thing with speaking—it’s one of those top fears, right? I don’t know if it’s number one or number two. Death is probably number two, and public speaking might be number one.

But it’s interesting. I’ve done a good amount of speaking, and I’m at the point now where I’m going to start doing a lot more. And like you said, it really comes down to practice. The more opportunities you get—even if it’s free, even if it’s in front of 10 people—you’ve got to get those reps in to start feeling comfortable.

If you want to be a speaker, the way to get better is just to do it. There are programs like Toastmasters, but it really just comes down to showing up and speaking.

I can tell you firsthand—and I’m sure you can too—those first few events were rough. I remember thinking, “What am I doing? Can I drink tequila right now?” I was just trying to loosen up!

I don’t think people always notice, because I’ve had people say, “Hey, great job,” and in my head, I’m like, I was freaking out up there. I’m already a fast talker, so adrenaline on top of that? People must think I’m on something!

But I’m super passionate and high energy by nature, so it’s part of my style. Still, it’s like you said—whether it’s speaking at a Denny’s or anywhere else, every opportunity teaches you something.

Most people only get better by doing. You become a better speaker by speaking more. I’ve done spontaneous events where someone didn’t show up, and they asked me to step in. I wasn’t prepared, but I reminded myself—I know my stuff. It’s not really about having a script.

Things will always go wrong. Something always happens. But in the end, it’s just about getting out there and doing it.

Yeah, that’s a great point. I was one of the keynotes at Ontraport in Santa Barbara at their last event. The reason I’m bringing that up is because a lady reached out to me through direct message.

She said, “I’m speaking on one of the stages, and I’m losing my mind. I can’t believe I signed up for this.”

I told her the exact same thing we just talked about: You have knowledge that others don’t.

People often think, “What am I going to tell them? Everyone probably already knows this.” But you’re not going to satisfy all 200 or 1,000 people in the room—and that’s okay.

When I attend presentations or conferences, I’m just looking for a few nuggets—something I didn’t know, maybe a new website or tactic. I don’t expect a Tony Robbins experience where I walk out wanting to change my whole life. I just want useful information.

So I told her, “People are coming to your session for a reason. They need the knowledge you have. You’ve got years of experience—one, two, five, even ten years—and that’s incredibly valuable.”

It’s your personal experience. No one can tell you it didn’t happen or that it didn’t work. Nobody’s going to stand up and say, “You’re lying.” That’s not going to happen. You’ll be fine.

She later thanked me. She said she couldn’t believe how warm the response was. That’s because people want to learn from others’ experience.

If I can watch someone on stage and skip five or ten years of trial and error just by learning from them—that’s the value.

In the beginning, I used to think the same way. I’d worry that everyone already knew what I was going to say.

Just recently, I did a workshop in San Francisco on influencer marketing. I felt confident going in, but I knew Amazon, Anthropologie, Purple.com—some really big brands—were in the room.

And I’m thinking, “Amazon is here. They probably know everything I’m about to say.” That voice in the back of your head starts talking.

But at the end of it, the biggest fan in the room was the guy from Amazon. He came up and said, “Oh my God, that was absolutely great content. So glad I came.”

And I thought, how funny is that? The one thing I was worried about—speaking in front of a big company—they ended up being the most appreciative.

They don’t know everything. Big brand or not, people come to learn.

Yeah, and that’s what’s kind of cool about it. It’s actually kind of nice to hear those numbers.

With the workshop we did, which was very hands-on, I was a little nervous. The guy I was doing it with says, “Hey man, after lunch—that’s when a lot of people leave.”

There was only enough room for 30 people in the place we had. We ended up with 32 because a couple people said, “I told my boss I was going to be here. I’ll stand.”

After lunch, everybody stayed. And I thought, wow, that’s awesome. You don’t always get that at bigger events. Someone else is footing the bill, they’ve got a lunch break, or maybe they’re just not as invested.

But if it’s your company, and you’re paying to be there, you’re probably going to stay.

So yeah, I think 30 percent is a great number to aim for—because that’s a solid connection. You’re not trying to hit 800 or 900.

The idea is, you get a good message out. The stuff you’re saying is real—because you’ve actually lived it. And that’s awesome.

And those little moments, those snippets—that’s the stuff I’d be walking away with if I were in the audience.

What I do is, if people get up, I act like a comedian. I’ll call them out—
“Hey, where you going? I can’t believe it. I was just about to drop the bomb of all the information you needed, and you disrespected me in front of the whole room.”

Yeah. And then people are scared to even go to the bathroom. They’re, like, frozen in their seats because they don’t want to be the one to get up and interrupt the presentation.

So anyway, let’s switch gears. Let’s talk a bit about B2B content strategy.

If you had a secret—and I know you’ve got years of experience—but if there was one thing, the one secret that you’re like, “Man, I wish B2B companies really got this,” regarding content strategy…

What would that one thing be? Something that makes you say, “Hey, everyone’s missing the boat here.”

I think another thing, which you kind of touched on, is just being genuine and caring. Just care—because sometimes clients become just another name on a list. But if you’re servicing that client, remember, they have options. And if you’re not taking care of them because you believe your stuff is the best and nobody else compares, that can come back to bite you.

Let me give you an example. I’ve got a client named Chris Rudin, great guy, been with me for a long time. He was on The Titan Games, he’s an influencer, but what really stands out is that he has seven fingers, a prosthetic arm, and he’s diabetic. He’s been through a lot. Lately, he’s been getting into speaking engagements, and I’ve been helping him line some of those up.

Recently, a woman from a speakers bureau brought us a deal. About two weeks ago, Chris spoke at an event in St. Louis and crushed it. I told him, “You’ve got to realize these people deal with tons of speakers. Now we need to show them how much we appreciate that they chose you.” So we put together a thank-you package—not just gift cards, because that’s the typical male move when you don’t know what to get. We actually got some girls involved to help pick out thoughtful items, including makeup, and we sent them a small package to say, “Thank you for picking Chris to be a part of this.”

They’re the ones who go through the speaker lists and decide who gets booked. So I told Chris, “Spend 30 or 40 bucks, send something to the coordinator and the saleswoman involved.” He did, and the next day we got these messages. One of them said, “Oh my God, thank you so much, nobody’s ever done this for us. You’re our favorites. We’re going to look for more events for you.”

So now we’re talking about a $30 to $50 investment, including shipping, that led to a $5,000 speaking event—and potentially three or four more. It’s that human side we often overlook. We treat business like it’s purely transactional, but if you pull back and just see the people behind it, it changes everything. How much effort does it really take to write a handwritten note, put together a small thank-you, something most people never do?

One of them messaged Chris directly. The other reached out to me—her name’s Katie—saying she loved the gift and wasn’t in the office when it arrived, but someone else grabbed it for her. Now she wants to talk about more events. So just like that, we’ve got two people in that office going out of their way to get Chris more gigs. He did well, we communicated clearly, and we followed up with appreciation. That’s what going the extra mile looks like.

It’s really just about treating people how you’d want to be treated. I don’t think we always think about that when it comes to clients. Like you said, sometimes there’s a wall—we look at them as the client, and we’re the experts, the educators, the ones with all the answers. But the real question is: how do we work together, build real synergy, and treat them like actual people? That’s what I think we miss—not just in content strategy or B2B, but in business and being human in general.

Yeah, it is. And I think it’s because, you know, the thing is, there’s plenty of people just selling. If you build that relationship, what people really want to know is your experience. They want to feel that you’re human, that you’re going to be able to help them. And it’s not about throwing out numbers or packages at them. So I think it’s some good stuff, really good stuff. So what about tools—apps, user tools, or software? What do you use, either as an individual or with your company? What are some tools that people may already know, but also maybe others they wouldn’t?

That’s awesome. Yeah, I know the guys. I know Rick over at SharpSpring, he’s a good guy. I know quite a few of those folks, and it’s kind of awesome. We use some of those tools too. We’re heavy on Slack, and we’ve had some good experiences. Slack was great—it really helped cut down on emails, which is always a good thing since we all get enough of those these days.

Yeah, some of them, it’s like $19, $29. It doesn’t need to be expensive. A lot of these tools have been around for years, and now they’re just building better features because they already have a strong base of users. So you still get solid value at a nominal rate.

What do you think about the marketing technology landscape? How do you think it’s going to transform? Let’s say 2019 and beyond—how do you see the landscape shifting? Because obviously everything’s always changing. What do you think the future holds?

Yeah, it’s always fun—that delicate balance, right? Because some stuff does this, some stuff does that. We’ve kind of seen that ourselves. We used to use Basecamp, we’ve used Asana, we use Trello. Now there’s always something new.

There’s a new one we just started using called Griffin, which is pretty cool—kind of ties into a lot of stuff. But there’s always a trade-off. Like, “Oh, I love seven out of ten features here,” or “This one has four other things the others don’t.”

There’s never a perfect software, because everyone’s needs are different. That’s the hard part: how do you take care of everything without making it all overly complicated?

So I think the most important part is figuring out what works and what ties together cleanly. That way there’s good communication between tools, so it doesn’t feel disconnected or discombobulated.

Yeah, the segmentation—I think that’s going to be a big focus moving forward. Most of the companies we talk to, before we start working with them, we ask about their email strategy. And it’s usually, “Oh, we send the same email to 10,000 people.”

I’m like, how’s that working out for you?

That’s the reason you hired us. Well, cool. So tell us about—like, I mean, obviously you’ve done a lot of cool things in your life, and you’re only halfway there. I’d say, what about your projects or accomplishments that you consider the most significant in your career?

Like, what would you say? I mean, I think meeting John McCain and working for him is a big thing, but not coming out of my mouth—what would you say is the one thing? And it doesn’t have to be business. It could be your first child, or maybe it’s not.

What’s that accomplishment where you can go, “Wow, that might not bring a legacy, but man, that’s the one thing that really stood out”?

Yeah, that is really cool. That’s a nice answer because it’s the core of everything you’ve done, right? It’s like being creative, which, I think, connects to everything—whether it’s political work or writing a book. It’s your superpower. That creativity, that ambition, that desire to take on challenges—that’s kind of the thread that runs through it all. And being creative about how you approach and pursue that is key.

I’m a firm believer in that too. For me, it’s just: pay it forward. Do good things, and good things will come back your way. I was just talking about this the other day. When I was younger, it was about money. I was like, I’ve got to do this, make X amount.

Now, for me, it’s the opposite. I don’t even look at money that way anymore. I mean, I look at money for projects, but it’s not the number one factor. It’s more like, am I going to enjoy it? And then there’s also the relationship side—is it going to be a good working relationship? I don’t know. I just think it’s an important thing to look at, especially as we get older.

Let’s switch gears a bit. I want to dig into Jon the individual. You’re very creative, and I know you might be working on stuff you can’t talk about yet. But I’ll ask you this: who’s your favorite artist? Favorite band? Do you have just one? Since you’re on the creative side, maybe you like a little of everything—country, soul, rock. Who do you love?

That’s awesome. Alright, so last question of the day. If you were to win 10 million—and I’m assuming you’re in Southern California, so stuff probably only lasts a few years—but let’s say someone brings you a briefcase of cash, or it’s a lottery ticket, whatever.

Ten million. What would change in your life? How would it affect you?

All right. So if anybody listening has $9 million—we’ve got a taker. Jon is ready to educate urban folks across America, which I think is awesome.

The only problem is, I thought for sure you’d give me some money. I mean, I thought we were close. I kind of feel like maybe I’m part of the will or something.

I feel better now. Just funny how this comes up when we’re off the podcast. And I’m not part of the ten million? For God’s sake. I thought for sure I’d get a small percentage.

Yeah, right. I’m not greedy by any means. But awesome—Jon, this was a great interview. Thank you so much for taking the time.

And if anybody needs to get in contact with you, how can they do that?

That sounds like a plan. Jon, thank you so much. Have an awesome day. We’ll talk soon.