Facebook Messenger Hacks for 2020 Success with Larry Kim

Welcome to the podcast. I’m Shane Barker, your host of Shane Barker’s Marketing Madness Podcast. Today, we’re going to discuss how to use Facebook Messenger for marketing. My guest, Larry Kim, is the CEO of MobileMonkey, a Facebook Messenger marketing platform. He also founded WordStream, a SaaS platform that offers a suite of cross-platform advertising solutions. He’ll share some insights on messenger marketing and discuss his entrepreneurial journey. We’re excited to have you today, Larry.

Absolutely, man. We usually start the podcast with some basic questions, like where you grew up and how big your family is. I heard you’re Canadian—where did you grow up?

Man, so you’ve got to wear a parka all the time, huh? Sounds pretty chilly.

Gotcha. So how big was your family?

You’re in the middle, gotcha. What about your parents—are they still in Canada?

Ah, I see. So they know it’s way too cold for you guys. You’re used to it, though, right? Now, you’re in the U.S., but tell us something interesting about growing up in Canada—or in your family—that people wouldn’t know.

That’s funny. Here’s a random question: even when it’s freezing cold, do you still have mosquitoes?

So either it’s freezing, or you’re fighting mosquitoes the size of birds?

I think it’s awesome. When you live somewhere, you don’t always think about the interesting things that stand out to outsiders. But I think it’s cool to hear about Winnipeg—it’s a place I’d love to visit. I’ve never been. I’ve been to Vancouver and a few other places in Canada, which is an absolutely beautiful country. I haven’t been out there where it might be a bit too cold for me, even though I have a beard, which might make me slightly more prepared than some people. I live in Sacramento, so we go to South Lake Tahoe. We’ve got the park and all that fun stuff, but I’m sure Winnipeg’s on another level of cold. That might be a test for me.

Well, for you, it’s practically Mexico, right? For me, I’d be wearing boots and all the other gear. Like I said, I might not make it in Canada. If I were in Winnipeg, I’d probably choose the mosquitoes over winter because I’d be a fragile flower out there. I’m not sure if I’d survive, but I’m sure you’d help me out if I had to.

Yeah, like being a Boy Scout. That makes sense. So where do you live now?

I’m very familiar with that area. Actually, I’ve been out there quite a few times. The amount of colleges is absolutely incredible. It’s like there’s a huge number of colleges per square foot—it’s crazy.

I was going to say, what brought you to Cambridge?

Nice. Are you a Boston fan? With all the sports and everything, it’s like if you don’t like Boston, you’re either with us or against us.

Do you think they keep winning because you came there? Were you the pivotal point for that?

Yeah, I’m a huge fan of luck. I try to get as lucky as possible whenever I can. It’s definitely one of the big variables for success, if you ask me. So, where did you go to college? Did you go in the U.S., or was it in Canada?

I can’t even spell “engineering,” and you went there. So how did you transition from electrical engineering to launching MobileMonkey, WordStream, and all these other ventures? I mean, I’d figure your parents thought, “He’s going to be an electrical engineer!” Then you said, “I’m going to be an entrepreneur!” What was their reaction?

Yeah, that’s the point. This is my journey, and it’s what I want to do. I’ll be successful no matter what—I just have to grind it out like everyone else and make it happen. So, tell us a little bit about WordStream. I know you had that company, and I think you’ve sold it since then, right? Also, we really want to focus on Facebook Messenger hacks for 2020, but first, fill us in on WordStream.

So, when you sold the company, did you go to your wife’s parents and say, “See, I told you this was the right decision”? Was there any conversation like that at Christmas, or did you just let the amount you sold it for speak for itself?

You don’t have to. You just fly into Christmas in your helicopter. At that point, they’re thinking, “Maybe Larry made a good decision doing all that.” But in all seriousness, congratulations—what you built is phenomenal. So, congratulations on that.

There we go. That’s sometimes what it takes, you know, the parents and the and the the other side of the parents, that sometimes that’s what it takes a little bit of pushing from knowing that you got to look them in the eyes of Christmas, and you’re like, you still take care of my little girl. Yes, I’m still taking care of your little girl. She’s doing girl. She’s doing good. I promise we’ll be fine. Now, that’s awesome. How did your transition start from, like, obviously, from word stream to mobile monkey? Was that kind of a two projects that were going at the same time?

Gotcha, awesome. So, at that point, when you started MobileMonkey and sold your previous company, did you take a little time off? Maybe go on vacation somewhere you’d never been?

There we go—always moving on to the next project. Larry Kim isn’t like, “Hey, I just made a few million. I’ll stop now.” You’re still going on to the next thing. That’s your mentality—your work ethic. You mentioned that maybe, if you’d known the outcome, you would’ve taken a few weeks off. But I think it makes sense. You probably had MobileMonkey on your mind—Facebook Messenger and how it would fit into the bigger picture. I know you’ve gotten some great traction with that. Could you tell us a bit about MobileMonkey, how you came up with the idea, and what made you start the company?

So how did you come up with the name MobileMonkey? Was there a particular premise behind it?

Yeah, I think that’s important. You come up with a great name and think it’s awesome, but then at some point you branch out. If “mail” is in your name and you start doing CRM, people might assume you’re purely an email platform. So you either have to rebrand, which can be expensive, or start another company. It’s the same when people use a city name—like “Sacramento Flippers.” Then if you go to Los Angeles or New York, potential clients think, “Why would I work with Sacramento Flippers if I’m in San Diego?” So I like “MobileMonkey.” Mobile use is only going to grow, and who doesn’t love a monkey, right?

Who doesn’t like a good monkey? Kudos on the name—I like “MobileMonkey” I’ve never owned a monkey, but Michael Jackson had one named Bubbles. Who knew, right? Anyway, what’s your role at the company? Obviously, I know you’re the owner, but what does that look like on a daily basis at MobileMonkey?

I see. So it’s not much different from what you did at WordStream. Now you’ve gained that experience, and maybe in five or six years, you’d like to bring this to IPO—or whatever the end goal is. You’ve already learned a ton over the past 10 years, so that curve shouldn’t be as crazy. That’s how you build on each business concept, right?

So for you, is it less about the money and more about the unicorn? You want unicorn status—like a unicorn tattoo?

Yeah, I get it. What I love is that you really like unicorns. I’m not sure if many people know that—if they’ve seen your presentations, they’d notice.

Right, so I’m thinking, “This guy loves unicorns,” and now we’re talking about them, so it fits. Be honest with the audience: do you have a unicorn tattoo? No? Are you sure?

Okay, so maybe someday. Let me know how it goes if you come home with a unicorn tattoo. I’m not sure how your wife would react. Mine would be like, “A unicorn? Why?” And I’d say, “Because I talked to Larry, and he loves unicorns, and I want a billion-dollar company.” I’d start adding them to my presentations and top it off with the tattoo—that’s the way to do it.

You’ve really leaned into the idea of the unicorn. No one wants a unicorn more than you—you’ve made that clear. It’s funny, because I didn’t fully connect the dots until I remembered a webinar you did. There were unicorns everywhere, so I thought, “Wait a second, there’s got to be something here.” That’s awesome. I mean, the best way to keep it front and center might be a tattoo, though I’m not saying you have to. There are levels, and you’re at the highest one. I’m looking forward to a MobileMonkey IPO. When you go IPO, I’ll come out and get a unicorn tattoo with you—how about that?

Okay, but make sure it’s a unicorn, right? Don’t back out. You said “tattoo.”

Why not? I’m down. I won’t make anything off MobileMonkey, but I’ll still come get the tattoo. My wife would be totally confused but hopefully excited about the idea of me having a unicorn tattoo!

You were an early adopter of the unicorn. That’s good to know. Maybe you should tell Starbucks, “If you guys want more unicorn ideas, I’m the originator. I brought it public. I’m making it big.”

In the same way you made Boston so successful—blessing them with your presence and all—their teams are always winning. There’s a parallel with unicorns too, right? Everyone else is just catching on. And now, if anyone in New York is listening, they might pay you to come stay there so their teams can start beating Boston. You might not want to admit you’re from Boston, because that’s a whole other can of worms. Anyway, you’ve got a unicorn tattoo, you’re from Boston, you should be fine. We’ll figure out the details later, but let’s circle back to Facebook Messenger. Where do you think businesses are missing out when it comes to Facebook marketing? I have a feeling I know your answer, because it seems obvious—we’re talking about Facebook marketing. So what do you think they’re missing?

That’s awesome. I’ll take the 20 bucks. I’m putting that into my unicorn tattoo fund. Maybe I’ll need 35 bucks by the time you IPO—accounting for inflation, you know? At that point, if I’m going to get a unicorn tattoo, it’ll probably be a full horn, but we can iron out those details later. Anyway, so MobileMonkey is the platform, correct? And if someone wants to try it out, you said it’s easy. And you’ll be able to help them as well, right?

Gotcha, gotcha. That’s funny—my team just started using Messenger. I did a speech last week, and we set up a Messenger right afterward. Do you know James and Craig over at ChatCloud?

Yeah, totally. We connected with them through another buddy—old-school marketing world stuff—and I was going to do a speech. In a way, we were collaborating on some things. They put together a cool feature so I could share my presentation at the end while I was still on stage. I gave out a Bitly link, people downloaded the slides, and we collected everyone’s contact information. It was awesome. Normally, when you finish a talk, you might collect a few business cards from people who say, “Hey, I want to chat,” or “I want to start a software company,” or “I want to be an influencer,” that kind of thing. But this time, I could see it all on my phone—ding, ding, ding—it was amazing.

Then I joked, “I can’t believe you guys filled that out—I have all your banking info now.” A few people looked up like, “Wait, what?” I was kidding because they were entering their details and were a bit vulnerable. I took advantage of that on stage, and it felt kind of fun. They got a little freaked out, so I reassured them, “Don’t worry, I have zero access to your account…yet. Maybe a few more details.”

I know, I was a bit early. Probably 13 or 20 people decided not to give me their emails because they thought I was messing with them. They were worried it’d link right to their bank account. Anyway, I’m just kidding—I didn’t hack that many people. That’s another story, which I won’t go into on a recorded podcast. But let’s switch gears and talk strategies—like, who’s really crushing it with Facebook marketing? Who do you look at and say, “These guys get it”?

That’s awesome. Are there any other companies—besides MobileMonkey—that you’d say are doing a great job?

Yeah, it’s cool when you come up with a new one, right? When something works, it’s like, “Wow.” You’re always testing stuff to see who responds. Then, when you do, it’s nice to be able to apply that to other industries. Especially with chatbots—I just started using them recently. It’s funny: I talked to Jeff Bullas, who’s been doing chatbots for maybe nine months, and he has, like, 60,000 subscribers. I’m not sure of the exact number, but it’s big. He’s had some great success. I thought that was cool—he was an early adopter, not the originator, but he was jumping on chatbots early, and it worked. I’m always seeing shiny new stuff to try, and chatbots have been on my list. I’ve been looking forward to tightening up what we’ve built, making it so it really brings in some awesome leads. So far, it’s been good.

Yeah, I’m excited about that too. I know Facebook’s looking to tighten things up, unifying everything so it’s easier to access through all platforms. So if I’m a marketer or a brand, how do I figure out the ROI of my Facebook marketing campaigns? There are a lot of different ways, but if I’m looking at ROI and I’m a client, how should I read the data and decide I was successful? Should I check a chatbot or look at actual campaign data?

Exactly, because it’s directly tied in. How does that work with chatbots? Usually it’s inexpensive or free, then you just tie that back in, and like you said, you can tag it in the back end of Facebook’s ad platform. You can see how many leads came in through the chatbot. Is that done through MobileMonkey, or is it tied in through Facebook?

That makes sense. You have to look at what you’ve done in the past, compare it to the new stuff you’re doing, and see if it’s working better.

Because of edge rank and the algorithms, it’ll never be what it was originally, right? They want you to pay—pay to play—and then they open it up. So, as we talk about Facebook, what do you think it’ll be like in, say, 2020? If we’re discussing Facebook marketing, what major changes do you see coming?

That’ll definitely open up some things—that’s a big audience once you tie those three together.

Yeah, exactly. So, what are your must-have tools? Like, as a marketer—putting aside the software side—if you didn’t have these three or four tools, you’d be lost. I’m talking “homeless,” or “like a unicorn with no vision.”

Yeah, we use Zoom too. I like it for training my team. Another one I’ve used a lot is Loom, because I have a remote team.

How many people do you have at the company now for MobileMonkey?

Okay, a good amount. Got it. How many unicorns would that be? Just kidding. So you guys are in Boston, all remote? My team’s all remote. We use Loom a lot, recording quick videos—kind of throwing ideas around. I think I have, like, 900 Loom videos, because I was one of the original early adopters. I use it all the time because it’s so much easier than typing everything out. So I’m just pumping those videos like no other.

Yeah, it’s awesome. So what’s ahead, man? I know MobileMonkey’s about a year, year and a half old?

Right, I mean, that’s your well, and I think it’s manifesting what you want, you know, seeing it happen. Some people believe in that, some don’t. I’m a big believer—if I can really see it, truly believe it, then it’s more likely to happen, maybe 10 times. It’s like people who fight disease: if you think you can beat it, you can. When you give up, you lose. So it’s the same thing with wanting to IPO and become a unicorn—just put a unicorn in every slide of your pitch deck. I’m gonna get away with progress here.

People underestimate the power of the mind. We apparently use like 7% or 8% of it, while I’m maybe at 4%. But that’s just me, not using all my brain cells. So what do you do to recharge yourself? You sold your company for 150 million, you took maybe seven minutes off, then came back on. Like, what do you do to recharge? Do you have downtime, or are you always at six gear? What’s the deal?

So would you say you’re a geek at heart? Do you feel like you’re probably…

I think “geek” is a good thing. It’s not a bad label. But if someone says, “You’re a geek,” and you’re like, “I’m not a geek,” I’ll say, “Well, I geek out on some stuff.” I don’t play a lot of video games, but to me, being a geek is cool—it’s come full circle. It’s fun to do interesting things, maybe play some video games, and just have a good life.

You know what else was big? “I’m a real estate investor.” That’s a big one I see a lot. I’m like, just because you bought a house doesn’t make you a real estate investor. Let me define this: buying one house doesn’t mean you’re investing—you’re not an investor. We get that, because I do real estate as well, and people say, “That’s cute, you’re a real estate investor.” It’s good you have a purpose, you feel like you’re a real estate investor because you bought a house 10 years ago. I say, “Keep investing, buddy, you’re on the right track.” So do you travel? What’s your favorite travel destination? Do you go anywhere specific?

Maui is incredible—everything looks like a postcard. Every sunset is amazing, every sunrise too. It’s like God spent a little extra time with his paintbrush on Maui. I was taking pictures of everything, probably maxed out my wife’s phone. I don’t know if I’ll ever see anything like it again. I’m a huge fan of Maui—big trip.

I hear you. So you go to Hawaii three times. Have you been anywhere else? I’ve never been anywhere other than Maui—like, the Big Island. If there are other spots, do you do all Maui, or what?

That’s what I’ve heard. In fact, my wife and I just discussed this about a week ago—she’s like, “I think Kauai’s the next spot.” So I put it on my map, and I’m looking at Marriott. I’m gonna try to negotiate some sort of deal to speak at an event, so they’ll pay for me to come out. We’ll figure something out in the middle.

Those are the two spots, exactly. You might get a message from me soon—maybe about getting the unicorn tattoo, or about Maui, Kauai, wherever. We’ll keep in touch. Now here’s the interesting part: if I gave you a credit card with a $50,000 limit, where would you max that out? Where’s the spot you’d go, remembering your wife doesn’t know about this card, so you don’t have to give up half of it. It’s like a “man card” thing—nobody else knows. So where are you blowing $50,000?

Crazy! So you don’t do the shared thing anymore?

Right. That’s how you justify it. No, it makes sense. I have friends like one buddy in Scottsdale who has as many cars as he wants, but he still does Lyft and Uber. Recently, I saw he bought a Tesla Legacy One. But I mention this because, at one point, I was still frugal—like my brother in San Francisco—and he’s like, “Why do you do the shared rides?” I’d say, “Because I saved four bucks.” He’s like, “Who cares? It’s just four bucks.” I don’t know why; I knew I could save it. I guess it’s kind of a frugal thing. But then I’ll go to Vegas and spend a hundred bucks on one hand of blackjack, which makes zero sense. My wife looks at me like, “You’re worried about four dollars?” I just… I don’t know.

It’s worth the extra five bucks to save your life. That’s fine. You’re worth it, Larry. All right, so here’s where the podcast ends. It’s been very emotional for both of us because we had nothing to guard ourselves. If anybody wants to connect with Larry Kim, how do they do that?

Sounds like a plan, Larry. That was fun, bud. Like I said, it’s only an hour. Sometimes you really connect with someone, you talk about unicorns and all this fun stuff, but eventually, it comes to an end. That’s where we’re at, man.

I appreciate it. We’ll be in touch. Thanks for everything.

All right, bud. Take care.