SEO, Influencer Marketing, and Emerging Marketing Trends with Jeff Baker

Welcome to Shane Barker’s Marketing Madness Podcast. In this episode, we’ll be talking about SEO and marketing. My guest today, Jeff Baker, is the CMO of Brafton, a specialist in SEO research and testing. Jeff is also a woodworker and a jogger. Listen as he talks about digital nomadism, canoe racing, traveling, SEO, and more. He shares some of his best lead generation strategies and content marketing strategies as well. Let’s take this back just a few years, you know, like, 40 or 50, however old you are. But where did you grow up?

Where did you grow up? Where was your foundation?

What’s the city?

Oh, I know where that’s at. I went out to the country there. I went there to see a Tribal Seeds show. That was about a year and a half ago.  You’re not that—I mean, you make it sound like you’re in the middle of Pennsylvania or something, like out in the air.

I mean, yeah, this is part of it. I mean, well, because I’m in Sacramento, so I’m not an hour and a half from there. Oh yeah, that’s right—I forgot. You’re out there. Yeah, I’m in the area. So how big is your family growing up? How big is your family? And you’re in the commune that you lived in.

Do they look like your dad or no? Because you might have your answer. I’m not here to, like—I don’t want to, you know, cause some weird stuff, but you might have your answer. It’s probably right there in your immediate family. I’m not saying your mom did anything crazy. I’m not saying she didn’t. I don’t know your mom, and it’s your mom, so I should probably be very ginger with this conversation. But she does. That’s awesome. Podcast. Yeah. Okay, there we go. This is perfect. Mom, I love you. Sorry. Anything that I said—I’ve been drinking. I apologize. So tell us an interesting fact, other than the fact that your brothers aren’t your brothers or somebody else’s. But anyways, give us an interesting fact, anything cool or fun growing up that you went through, that you can tell us about?

I did see that.

So where do you do this? Like, where do you race canoes? A river?

Oh, I can imagine. How far is it? How far does it go?

God, that sounds like seven miles too far. But then obviously, you guys go log in afterwards, and life is good again, right? You go out there, put on the gear, and then I go after. Yeah, now I could do eight miles. Okay, so I gotta figure out the whole procedure first, and that makes more sense. Cool the driver. So where do you go now you’re traveling? Are you fully remote? What I mean is, where do you do your thing? Do you have a place where you live? Or do you mean you put your stuff in storage and just now you’re doing this remote thing? Or do you have a place and somebody’s renting it out? Like, what’s the deal?

Damn. I’m jealous. I gotta be honest. I get jealous on podcasts, but man, I literally mean it—you’re gonna have to tell me where you’re gonna be at. I’m gonna come visit you. I got another buddy of mine, Adam, that used to work at BigCommerce, and he’s out traveling. He’s in France and all kinds of stuff. And I was like, “Dude, give me your schedule.” I’m gonna meet you in the city for a few days. We’re gonna do probably stuff we can’t talk about on the podcast, but that’s awesome, man. That’s awesome that you’re out there joining me.

That was actually one of the countries my family went to, and I didn’t go. I was in Costa Rica, so I do a lot of traveling myself back in the day, and I went to school in Costa Rica. A lot of people don’t know. That’s my little fun fact. So my family actually ended up standing there—another family, dude—because we love the tea. Because, yeah, good times, for sure. But they went to Guatemala, and I ended up not going. It was during one of the big festivals—they got the flowers. I mean, it was just absolutely stunningly beautiful.

So Guatemala has been something that’s been on my list for a while. I’ve got to look at my calendar, because right now, the thing I do is just try to speak in exotic locations for not a lot of money, so I can be in an exact location. So that’s been my excuse.

I have a family, so I got a wife, and my wife’s super understanding. She’s like, “Yeah, go get in a van and do your thing.” Like, “I’ll just come visit every once in a while.” She’s a—you know, she knows I’m kind of afraid I’ll be raised by hippies. But I’m California, like, family. My dad lives in Davis, and you do the math on that. If you know Davis, we’re not, you know… So now I have a bracelet that actually was some—was you know, it was. Usually, I’ve got—I’m hippie out, man. It’s a little reggae. I told you, listen—reggae at a concert in your hometown, buddy. I like it. I got the right going on too. Oh yeah, that’s beautiful.

I mean, that’s awesome. I knew we were gonna be like Jungle Brothers one day, so that’s awesome. So how did you—where did you go to college? Did you go to college in California as well?

There we go. And that’s good for the earth, right? Or that’s all we care about. What did you go to school for? What was your degree?

Isn’t it crazy? When did you graduate? Let’s see, what year?

So it took me 10 years. We’re literally Jesus. They called me doctor. We might have the same—we might have the same dad or something. Like, I’m nervous to tell you what my dad’s real name is, because we might have some really—I mean, look at Baker and Barker. I mean, there’s just one letter missing. We could be, who knows? Man, I know it’s a lot of reality. Glad we’re sitting down, because it’s a lot to take in right now.

So how did you jump into the SEO space? How did that come about? What was your journey out of college? You’re in Sonoma, which is awesome—great wine country, hippies everywhere. Love, peace, journey. So what happened? Did you jump into the SEO space? Did you bleed into San Francisco and start doing stuff there? Or was it totally random?

Well, it’s funny. That’s because you’re obviously very much a creative, right? I mean, that’s what’s interesting. I love talking to fellow people that do SEO because of what their background is and what they do. People get into it for different reasons. I like doing SEO because I like the competition. I like to be able to say, half the time it could be a keyword that I know somebody else is going after, and I could get number one for it. Then for me, it’s just—I feel better about it at night that I’ve slapped somebody down to the number two spot, right? Of course, when I get slapped down to number two or three, I’m like, “You look bastards. I’m gonna come back and spam you after family or something,” right?

So it’s an interesting thing. That’s funny, because SEO is a science, right? We have the idea of how to put everything together, how to get people to react to it. So it is interesting. So when you went from there—you were working with all your super cool friends from McKinsey that you’re probably still friends with—it sounds like today. So then what did you do? What was your next step?

Super awesome. Yeah, tell my clients that left—I’m glad you left, by the way. If you’re listening to this, I’m glad you miss me at all, because I found a better client that pays on time and loves me and understands the value in what I do. Sorry, I feel better. God, I feel better. That was a good moment.

I just—I blacked out for a second. I’m glad I came to because I literally just lost it. Like little Irish lost it, and then I’m back.

I don’t even remember it. I’m not sure what happened. That’s the reason I do video on this too—so I can rewind and go, “What happened?” Shane lost it again on the podcast. He started crying. He gets real emotional when a session talks about SEO and stuff. But so, being a practitioner, you’ve been a brat for what, seven-plus years now?

Yeah, that’s awesome. And the content. It’s funny—we, myself included, invested in content marketing about eight years ago. We started doing it, and now we do heavy content as well. Not as big, probably, but still. How big is Brafton? Like, how many employees do you guys have?

But most people are remote? I didn’t know that.

That’s awesome. And I was gonna ask you about that, because obviously you’re out traveling right now, right? Getting work done and staying productive. My home team is remote as well. I had a past company with 130 employees, and it was all in-house. I was like, “I’ll never do that again.”

Now it’s nice—I can go anywhere, I can travel, I can do this. My team’s all on project management software. It makes it easy to keep everything moving. You can access software from anywhere. And as long as I don’t have to do video or be on location, the world’s kind of your oyster.

I mean, I’m a little jealous that you’re out running around in another country right now and I’m not. I’ll figure it out—maybe medicate myself. Be careful though—I might be that 6’1″ guy with a red beard who shows up and gives you a hug like, “Hey, I made it!” And you’re like, “You’re crazy! I can’t believe you walked here from Sacramento.” You get it, Shane. You get it.

So, tell us a little about some of the stuff you’ve been working on—because obviously you’re big on the analytics side, right? You like testing. Brafton’s been a great test environment for you because you’ve had a lot of traffic to work with. And with A/B testing, you really need that traffic to see what’s working.

Tell us a little about the lead generation strategies you’ve implemented at Brafton that have been successful. I know you guys have case studies on the website, but is there anything you’ve worked on recently where you thought, “Hey, this was cool—we tried it, and it was phenomenal”? Any fun stuff you can share?

Yeah, and that’s kind of the question of the day. When you see that organic traffic growing, and see those things coming through—it’s obviously phenomenal. How much traffic are you guys getting a month now, approximately, on Brafton?

Nice. That’s beautiful.

Yeah, I get that. I was just at a conference, and Neil was speaking there. We had a little conversation afterward. I only went and talked to him because I beat him out with some keywords. Wouldn’t let him know he’s losing different areas. He’s pumped. He loves that kind of stuff. Loves it when I come and talk trash. So trash. So not always. Anyway, it was fine. We were able to work it out.

But yeah, it’s cool. You guys have seen some big strides—like, in how you put content out for more intent, right? The people that are looking for your services. Yep, that’s it. That’s awesome.

So what I mean is—since you’ve been working with Brafton for so long, and you touched on Neil Patel, and obviously Brian and Backlinko—what are some other companies you feel are crushing it from a content and SEO perspective? The ones putting together a really good combination of both?

Because you’ve got Brian, who puts out content like whatever one month, whatever it is—it’s very inconsistent. But he has these big, pillar-style pieces, right? Then Neil puts out more consistent content, but it’s a different kind of strategy. Who else do you like? What other companies or individuals are you seeing out there, where you’re like, “They’re doing a phenomenal job”? Who’s on your radar?

Yeah, yeah. They’re not for you. That’s exactly it. And I don’t want to talk bad about them—because I do write for them—but you know, it’s like one of those things where I’ll just say, “Yeah.” So I probably won’t pitch them again.

But a lot of the stuff I read is like, “The three things Elon Musk did to become a billionaire.” And I’m like, “Why am I clicking on this?” And it’s like, focus. He focused. He drank tea. And then he, you know, stayed there for 12 hours. And I’m like…

Yeah, with three goats. So I’m like, “Oh, the goats—okay, I don’t have goats. That’s probably why.” But I don’t know, it’s interesting when you see that, because some of it is becoming more educational and less about just putting out content for the sake of it.

Like, I’ve noticed Huffington Post recently started doing a lot more new stuff. I don’t know if it’s just on my radar or what, but I don’t remember them doing that before. It seems like a shift. People make changes to their content strategy depending on what they’re trying to achieve—whether it’s impressions, ad space, or something else.

They’ve got certain numbers they need to hit, KPIs they’re accountable for. They’ve got to go to leadership and say, “Hey, we’re doing this, we’re generating more traffic,” and so on.

So, yeah. You’ve got Neil Patel, you’ve got Brian. You also mentioned the Content Marketing Institute. Is there anyone else on your radar?

I interviewed Rand a week ago. Yeah. No kidding. He was great.

Here’s what’s funny—and if you haven’t listened to the interview with Rand, you’ve got to check it out. I had this crazy story about him. This must’ve been… I don’t know how many years ago. I’m terrible at remembering dates. Maybe seven, eight, ten years back? It was at Dreamforce. I was with my wife, and we were eating at this little diner—like a Mel’s Diner type of place.

Rand and a bunch of other speakers were sitting nearby. This was before anyone really knew who I was—not that I’m saying I’m a thought leader now—but I was just starting out, trying to figure things out. I wasn’t even on my own radar yet.

So I turned to my wife and said, “You know what? I’m gonna buy all of their dinners and just leave. I’m not even gonna tell them it was me.” And she was like, “Why would you do that?” I said, “I don’t know. I just want to.”

So I went up to the waitress and told her, “I’m gonna buy all of their dinners. Don’t tell them it was me. If they ask, just say you don’t know—make it random.” I paid, we left, and I never brought it up again.

Years later, my brother—who worked at CreativeLive in San Francisco—told me he was going to interview Rand Fishkin. I said, “Dude, I’ve got a crazy story about Rand!” I told him the whole thing. But my brother didn’t end up telling Rand because they were trying to work out a deal at the time. Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t—but the story never came up.

Fast forward to the podcast. I told Rand, “I’ve got something I need to bring up.” My wife didn’t even remember it. And I started thinking, did I make this whole thing up? I’ve had a few craft beers over the years… maybe I hit my head or something. I started doubting whether it really happened.

So I told him, “This is going to sound weird, but there was a thing at Dreamforce. You were at a diner—Mel’s, I think—and someone bought your group dinner. You never found out who it was.”

And Rand goes, “You’ve got to be kidding me.” Then he turns to his wife—Jodine—and asks, “Do you remember that?” And she goes, “Oh my god, yes!” She remembered it!

What’s even better is that afterward, they paid it forward. They bought dinner for the people sitting next to them and left. They kept the chain going. I thought that was awesome.

To this day, I still don’t know why I did it—other than maybe deep down I thought, “One day I’ll have a podcast, and I’ll bring this up. It’ll be super awkward and cool.”

Anyway, we had a great conversation—talked about Google, the usual stuff. Rand was like, “Man, I wish they weren’t doing this or that,” and I was like, “Somebody’s got to take on the big dog.” And I respect that. I’ve done that myself in the past.

Actually, in a whole different business, I got sued for $65 million and had to fight the Attorney General.

Whole other story.

I’ll give you a story—one I’ve never actually talked about on the podcast.

So, quick 60 seconds: I had a business where we were suing banks on behalf of people who were taken advantage of during the mortgage crisis. We’re talking elderly people, folks who didn’t speak English and didn’t have proper translation during loan signings—stuff like that. And we built this company up. At one point, I had around 1,400 to 1,700 lawsuits filed against major banks—Bank of America, Wells Fargo, the big dogs.

I was young, and in my head, I thought, “Hey, I’m doing something good. I’m helping people who were mistreated.” And yeah, we were making money, but the goal was rooted in trying to do right. At least that’s what I thought.

But man—it’s a crazy story. One day I’ll write a book or make a movie about it, because it really is that wild.

The reality is, when you go up against those kinds of institutions—multi-billion-dollar banks with legal teams that are like werewolves who don’t sleep and just eat flesh—you realize quickly how outgunned you are. I was this young little lamb like, “Hey, this is great, I’m helping people!” And they were like, “Cool story, kid.”

There’s a lot more to it. Another conversation for another day. But yeah, it’s kind of why I connected with Rand on that level. I think he’s cut from a similar cloth—he’s not afraid to challenge the system. But when you start going after big players, you’ve got to be careful. There’s the PR side of things… and then there’s everything else. You never know how deep that goes.

So yeah, shoutout to Bank of America—and to the black SUVs that followed me around for six months. That’s why I’ll be in Bolivia in two weeks. If there’s a “random” accident down there… just know, they found me again.

Anyway! Funny how I finally end up sharing a story I swore I’d never tell, and Jeff Baker of all people is the one who pulls it out of me.

So, back to you. We knew this was going to be that kind of podcast.

Let’s shift a bit—what are you seeing in the marketing space right now? Any emerging trends that stand out? I know in a past episode we talked about influencer marketing. You’re a huge fan, right? Ready to get that influencer tattoo?

You just want to be famous. You want your wood to be famous—which sounds super weird when I say it out loud. Like… famous wood. Now it’s worse. We’re gonna have to edit that. Actually, don’t. Keep it in. Let it ride.

But seriously—what do you see that’s interesting? What’s on Brafton’s radar right now? Is it AI? Machine learning? Something else? Beyond all the fun and shenanigans, what’s actually catching your eye?

Yes, dude. Those guys are crazy, and they’re growing.

For sure.

What I think is— isn’t that how we first met? I think it is. I was like, “I’ve written for you guys,” and we did something—I just had to look it up because I wasn’t sure what it was. I didn’t know what webinar or project it was. I can’t even remember. But I was just looking, and I saw it—February 4, 2018, my friend. We’ve been friends a long time.

So yeah, it was Lauren and Ali and all those guys. I was just looking at that and thinking, “They’ve definitely been doing that strategy for a while,” because I know I was a part of it. I was going to give you a hard time—“Oh, why didn’t you reach out to me?” And then I thought, “Oh, maybe they already did, and I just forgot.” So I get it.

I was an early part of that. Early process. And I’m proud of that. Hopefully, you guys fly to the moon.

I’m an easy win, man. I really am. I don’t put up a fight. I’m like, “Oh, interview? Can I talk about me? Can I talk about myself?” No, dude. I’m like, “You know other people—cool. Let me ask some questions.” I’m like, “Let’s interview. Let’s chat. Let’s do whatever we need to.”

I think you guys even made a cartoon character of my face or something. I haven’t forgotten. It made me look at myself. I was like, “Mom, look at this! I’m in a cartoon!”

Yeah, no, literally. It probably took me two years to grow this beard. And this is where we are today. The full beard no one can even see. How quickly can you grow a beard? Like, just brag how fast.

I hate you. And I did just say that out loud. I mean, this beard literally took me two years. And if I were to shave it—you can’t see it on the podcast—but if I shaved it, there are parts underneath that just have to overlap. Like, for it to look like anything decent, it has to overlap. If not, it looks like I’m patchy. It’s a delicate balance—but it’s a delicate balance to be able to stay this strikingly good-looking with a red beard.

So, you know, it is what it is. But let’s move on. I know we could probably do a whole other podcast just about beards. But what are three tools that you guys use—either you personally or at Brafton—that you can’t live without? SEO tools you’re like, “Hey, these are it. We don’t go without these.”

Yeah, well, we use those tools too. I mean, there’s a lot of tool scores—everything. I agree with you. There are certain things we use for certain things. And it’s like, you can look at one and they’ll say, “Hey, there are 5,000 searches,” and another one will say, “There are 2,200.” And you’re like, okay… I mean, yeah, it’s just a general idea—but still, it’s somewhere in that vicinity. I think it should be fine.

But what about other stuff? Any other projects you’re working on? Any cool stuff?

I know Brad is always working on something, and you’re always trying to drive more traffic and get more people in the door. Any side projects? Or can you not talk about it because you’re in Bolivia or something?

Like, do you have a secret canoe you’re building with Elon Musk? Just tell us. Give us the goods, man. Don’t hold back.

Well, the thing is, it’s like—when you think about it—HubSpot was pretty famous for having these unique tools. Like, you could check a headline or whatever, and those kinds of things can really drive some decent traffic. I guess it depends on if it’s the right type and the right kind of intent.

But I think there’s value in giving people a place to go where they can say, “Hey, I don’t know how to use all these tools, but it’d be nice to know I’m at a B+ for this, or a B- for that, and here’s why.” I think that kind of thing has value—especially if you’re not a major SEO person who wants to dig through spreadsheets and compare keyword data, backlinks, and all that stuff.

It’s like, just give me the big picture. Tell me where we’re at. Maybe give me some direction. “Okay, here’s kind of where you stand. And here’s how to move up. Here’s what kind of blog posts you should write. Here’s how to position yourself better.”

I think it makes a lot of sense. It simplifies things. However you guys would turn that into a business, I guess.

So do you think that idea came from being around all these incubators? Like, where you’re traveling, going to different cities, hanging out with people building stuff?

He said, “I want to take what I’m learning here and put it online.” Is that kind of how it happened?

That’s really interesting. What is it? What’s the name? What’s it called? I’m gonna look into it.

Gotcha. So what is it, really? What do you do? You pay monthly? Can you go to different areas—you just have to pay to get there? Is it like accommodations are taken care of because you’re a member, or how does it work?

Is there a set amount of time? Like 30 days to help people merge, gel, and work together? Or is it more open-ended?

That’s freaking awesome. Well, that’s kind of what I did in Costa Rica. It was like, I school during the week, and then weekends we would go travel, right? And that was the goal.

I was actually in San José—in the capital—and then we’d go to places like Jacó and Alajuela on the weekends. Honestly, we went all over. At that point, it was just about finding places we could get to. During the week, I was there for school—I was learning Spanish.

I lived with a family that only spoke Spanish. The little girls in the house knew maybe three words of English. This was 20 years ago, so yeah—it’s been a while. My Spanish is pretty good, though. When I get back into a Spanish-speaking country, it starts to come back to me. But I haven’t used it as much as I’d like over the last couple of decades.

That’s why I’m excited about setups like these 30-day programs. I’m kind of crazy like that. There was a startup once—they wanted to hire me but said, “We want you to live with us.” And I did. I lived with the startup for six months. That was my house. I saw my wife maybe once a week during that time.

I also did consulting on the East Coast for about six months—Florida, Charleston, all over. My wife would come out to visit, but she knows I’m a bit of a free spirit. I’m always looking at where I can go next. I want her to come with me, but if she can’t, she knows I’m still going to put on my skates and go. We’ll FaceTime or she’ll come visit, but I’m going to end up somewhere.

I follow a few travel hackers—people who find crazy good deals—and I’m always trying to keep an eye on that stuff. So yeah, I’m definitely gonna look into that program you mentioned. It’s super intriguing.

Right now, I’m actually doing a lot of real estate—fix and flips—with one of my close buddies. So that kind of keeps me more grounded. I didn’t want to bring it up, but yeah… the medication’s not working. I know what you were thinking. No, it’s not. I’m a little discombobulated—but I’ve got a good-sized team helping me keep everything moving.

So what about you? You’re a big traveler. You’re a woodworker. You race canoes—which, honestly, was the first thing I thought when I saw you. But what else? Someone told me you’re kind of a movie nerd. Is that true?

No, it’s cool! I mean, that all comes down to how you were raised, right?

In my family, we barely watched movies. I think we watched maybe two movies my whole life. My mom would be like, “Oh, you’ve got time to sit and watch something? Then it’s time to clean the toilet.”

So I was like, “Guess what? I’m not watching TV.”

We had a TV I didn’t even know how to turn on. Even today, I’m like, grabbing the remote thinking, “Oh, this is gonna be a challenge.” But I get online, and of course, I go build something or start a project.

But just last night, I tried to watch something. I was literally sitting there trying to figure out how to use Hulu. I was like, “Do I have this on my phone?” I’m staring at it, like, “Okay, I can do this.”

Yeah. But you do like movies. Movies are kind of your thing. So… what’s your favorite movie?

Okay, I remember growing up, I was a big fan of the movie Big—you know, Tom Hanks. I don’t know why, but I was like, “Yeah, jump. That life looks awesome.” Good times.

And then there was Good Will Hunting—that movie really hit me. I almost moved to Boston because of it. It was around the time I was choosing a college, and I was either going to move to Chico or Boston. I didn’t end up going to Boston—mostly because of Nevada—but I seriously considered it. I remember thinking, “I want to go there.” I mean, obviously, I wasn’t getting into MIT, but maybe MITI or something like that. Not quite MIT.

But I just remember watching that movie, and something about it—the cast, the feel—it stuck with me. It felt like something more. And now, I love the city. Boston is great. I mean, there’s like a COVID testing site every nine feet or whatever now, but still—it has all those top colleges and just that vibe.

Anyway, I was always really intrigued by that movie. I almost made a major life decision because of it. That’s how powerful a good movie can be.

Yeah, for sure. I think I went to Cheers too. Isn’t it Cheers and Boss? I think that’s what it’s called?

I think I probably went to the fake one because there was a sign out front. I took a picture and looked at the little sign. Out front, it looked like Cheers. Love being a tourist. Awesome.

So what would be three adjectives that describe you, man? You’re a different dude—in a good way. I mean that in the sense that the stuff you do is just awesome. You’re like that free spirit. But what if you had to pick three adjectives to describe yourself—what would they be?

So when you say moving around—do you mean you’re into new adventures, new things? Or is it more like you just need change? You’re wired differently?

Yeah, that’s exactly it. Sounds like the perfect job for you, then, right? I mean, it doesn’t get much better than that.

They let you work remotely, you can travel wherever, as long as you’re getting your work done—which you are. You’ve been there seven years. You’ve clearly put in the time and shown your value. You’re doing a great job, man. That’s phenomenal.

Yeah, I think so too. And you can tell when people aren’t working, right? I mean, you can tell when things aren’t getting done because you kind of have a sense of when things should be done.

If someone’s not hitting the mark, it’s obvious. This isn’t a knock on remote work—my team is all remote. I don’t micromanage. But I always say, if I have to micromanage you, you’re not going to be on my team. You get your stuff done, and that’s that.

We have processes and systems in place, so I know things are moving forward.

Anyway, what if I gave you fifty grand? That’s cold, hard cash. I don’t know what that equals in Bolivia, but I imagine it’s a lot. How would you spend it?

And don’t give me that basic answer—“I’d travel.” I know you. I want the real answer. What would you do with $50,000? Would you buy a bedazzled canoe? Because you love fake diamonds?

We just started working on that. I mean, I’ve known about passive income for a while—nothing crazy, but I’ve gotten little streams here and there. That’s what we’re working on now. There’s a course on howtobeaninfluencer.com—it’s a course about building passive income.

We also just started doing some serious affiliate stuff, which is going well. We’ve been driving a good amount of traffic—around 170 a month, just on Saturdays alone—so we’re starting to use affiliate stuff more.

It’s funny, if you look at people, I used to think, “I’d never use my own name. My domain? That sucks.” But now I’m like, “Well, if I own the name, I can do some stuff with it.”

Like if you went to someone and said, “Hey, I want to do affiliate stuff,” they’d probably go, “I don’t know if we’re doing that.” But when it’s your own engine, your own site, you can do that. You can have clients and monetize it however you want.

That’s actually been one of the best things about using my name for my company. I’ve been able to do some pretty cool affiliate stuff. And I’m also trying to set up that monthly recurring type of deal—so I don’t have to think about it constantly.

I’ve been super heavy on the client side for a long time, but now I’m building courses and other things too. I want to transition more of my work so I can travel more—make money while I sleep and work on the stuff I care about.

And honestly, I’ve been fortunate these last few years. I’ve had the chance to work on what I want to work on. Now I’m just focused on doing even more of that.

It’s kind of like you’re saying the same thing. All right, Jeff. Jeff Baker from Brafton, buddy.

That’s me—struggling, frankly. Beautiful. I mean, I should’ve done something other than a podcast. This is what the guests get to see every day. And if people just saw you, they’d be like, “Wow, that’s what he looks like?” That’s amazing. Your parents must’ve been blessed—or you were just wasted on audio. I know I am.

I should probably start doing more TV stuff because clearly, I’m striking the perfect balance of awesome and beautiful. I don’t believe any of that, but we’ll pretend for the listeners.

So if someone wanted to get in touch with you—and I know you don’t have a real address, we’re not even sure where you are right now, whether it’s Bolivia or if you’re maybe an undercover FBI or CIA agent—how would they get in touch with you? Like, through Brafton or whatever company you’re secretly working for?

I think that’s enough. We’ve already got pictures of you out there and everything, so I think we’re good.

Last question: are you and Francis still doing the podcast? I wasn’t sure—he’s not drafted anymore, right? Is that still going or…?

I’ll tell you, man—I’ve done a lot of podcasts. But your podcast? It was fun. You guys just take the gloves off and go for it. That’s what I liked. You know, it’s like, you just gotta have fun.

Absolutely—that’s how it should be. I’ll admit, I was a little worried for a second. I thought maybe you and Francis had broken up or something. For me, it wasn’t even about the show—it was more like, “Man, who’s got the kids now? Who gets the weekends?”

Poor puppy. Super awkward—especially when it’s cold out there in Boston.

Well, cool, man. Shoot me an email, brother. Have fun out there. We’ll be talking soon.

All right, bud. Take care.