
Content Marketing Myths You Need to Know with Michael Brenner
with Shane Barker
In this episode, Michael Brenner, CEO of the Marketing Insider Group and best-selling author, challenges common misconceptions in content marketing. He reveals how genuine storytelling and customer-first messaging can transform outdated, campaign-driven tactics into sustainable growth strategies. Michael shares practical insights for building trust, fostering authentic engagement, and driving measurable business results. Tune in for actionable tips for modern marketers.


Michael Brenner is a marketing leader, author, and keynote speaker with over 20 years of experience transforming content marketing into a powerful driver of ROI and customer engagement. As VP of Content at Workday, he builds impactful content strategies that align with the company’s values—prioritizing employees, customers, and innovation to drive meaningful connections.
Previously, Michael held leadership roles in enterprise marketing, startups, and agencies, guiding brands to break through the noise with demand-driven storytelling. He is the author of Mean People Suck and The Content Formula, where he shares insights on building high-performing teams and customer-centric marketing programs.
A sought-after keynote speaker, Michael has inspired global audiences with his expertise in storytelling, marketing, and leadership. His passion lies in helping brands become thought leaders, creating content that resonates, inspires, and delivers real business growth.
Episode Show Notes
In this episode of “The Marketing Growth Podcast,” host Shane Barker sits down with Michael Brenner to debunk common content marketing myths. Michael, CEO and founder of the Marketing Insider Group and author of two best-selling books, explains why many marketers confuse simple content creation with strategic content marketing. He shares insights on the importance of storytelling, consistency, and customer-focused messaging that truly builds trust and drives results. Michael also discusses how marketers can move away from outdated, campaign-driven tactics and embrace a more human, relationship-based approach. Drawing on his extensive experience as an internationally recognized keynote speaker and thought leader, he emphasizes that genuine content marketing isn’t about isolated projects like an eBook or a single blog post—it’s about creating a continuous dialogue that addresses customer questions and needs. Whether you’re looking to refine your strategy or start fresh in the digital space, Michael offers actionable tips and real-world examples to help you cut through the noise and elevate your brand’s narrative. Tune in to discover how to replace myth with method and transform your content efforts into a sustainable growth engine.
Books mentioned
The Content Formula
Mean People Suck
Brands mentioned
Marketing Insider Group
The Marketing Companion

Welcome to the podcast. I am Shane Barker, your host of Shane Barker’s Marketing Madness Podcast. My guest today, Michael Brenner, is going to talk about content marketing. He’s the CEO and founder of the Marketing Insider Group, a company that helps businesses with their content marketing strategy. He’s also an internationally recognized keynote speaker who speaks about leadership, culture, and marketing. Michael is the author of two books, The Content Formula and Mean People Suck. Listen in as he talks about the importance of storytelling and some of the things marketers get wrong with content marketing.

All right, you guys, once again—hey, we’ve got another great episode of Shane Barker’s Marketing Madness podcast. We have Michael on the line. Michael, thank you so much for taking the time today.

Michael Brenner
Man, thanks for having me. How are you?

Absolutely, doing good. Man, doing good. I say good, and I am doing good. But you know, we’ve got this whole thing—of course, by the time this session comes out, it’s kind of crazy because we’re talking about the Coronavirus that’s going on. If this airs in a week, a thousand things could change, so what we discuss might not even be applicable. We’ll probably touch on that a bit, but really, the premise of the podcast is to get to know more about you, your organization, and what you’ve got going on. A lot of our listeners obviously know who you are. We run polls asking who they want us to interview, and you were one of the people who came up, so we’re excited to have you on. For anyone who doesn’t know you, I figured we’d do a little background—like where you grew up, all that fun stuff. So why don’t we start there: where did you grow up, and where do you live now? Let’s get a little backstory.

Michael Brenner
Yeah, it sounds good. So I live in Westchester, Pennsylvania, which is about 30 miles southwest of Philadelphia—it’s kind of a halfway point. I grew up in Reading, Pennsylvania, which is about 50 miles directly west of Philly. My wife grew up in Wilmington, Delaware, which is about 30 miles directly south of Philadelphia. So where we live now is a sort of central point. My brother and sister-in-law ended up going to the university in town, so they live close by. My mom moved nearby as well. So, yeah, we didn’t all grow up here, but we ended up congregating around this area, and it’s nice.

That is awesome. Yeah, it’s probably nice for Christmas and everything else. It’s funny how people end up somewhere, and then suddenly the whole family gathers there. Sounds like good stuff going on. So how big was your family growing up?

Michael Brenner
I’m one of four—I’m the third of three sons, and then I have a younger sister. So we had a lot of fun in our household growing up.

Your sister’s probably pretty well-protected with three older brothers. Even now, her husband’s got to be a little nervous sometimes, just in case anything goes wrong. Not that it would, but you know, there’s that built-in protection. That’s awesome. So was there anything interesting from your childhood—any fun facts? One of my past guests said she was a stripper—an illegal stripper, at sixteen. I’m not saying you were or weren’t one—no judgment either way—but do you have any interesting tidbits from your family life? Doesn’t have to be stripper-related, obviously.

Michael Brenner
Well, yeah, I mean, I do aspire to be a stripper at some point. So that’s kind of a life goal.

That’s why I kind of alluded to it. Because I’ve read some of your books, and at the end, you’re like, “I’m really hoping one day my name could be Ecstasy, and then I can work the polls the way my family members have for the last few generations.” So exactly—beyond the stripper aspiration we all have, is there anything else?

Michael Brenner
I’m trying to think. The town I grew up in—Reading, Pennsylvania—was a major industrial center back in the late 1800s, and the Reading Railroad was actually one of the more profitable railroads in the country. If you’ve played Monopoly, you’ll know it. More recently, Reading’s become famous for other things, too. It was once called America’s Pretzel City because many major pretzel manufacturers started, or at some point were based, in the city. Reading was also the outlet capital of the world for a while, until gangs invaded the city a couple of decades ago and someone got shot in the head, which basically killed the outlet industry in writing. Now its claim to fame is the largest murder rate per capita. So things have gone from good to bad to worse. There’s a lot of economic development happening there now. I’m rooting for the city. I haven’t lived there in, gosh, 30 years, but I still have a lot of friends and some family there, and I’m still rooting for it. If you grow up in an industrial city, any of us who have been there know the ups and downs of the economy.

Yeah, for sure. Number one is murder rate in the capital, which is exciting, I guess. And I’ll tell you again, this podcast is coming out in the next few weeks, so here in the U.S., we’re now number one in Coronavirus rates, which isn’t great, but we’re all winning in separate categories. “Not sure if ‘winning’ is the right term,” but interesting times. Anyway, Reading apparently has some things turning around, and you haven’t been back there in a while. But it sounds like a great city overall. So, where did you go to college? Talk to us about that a little bit.

Michael Brenner
Yeah, so I wanted to go to a small school in a big city. A couple of friends of mine, who were a year older from my high school, went to a small university in Philadelphia called St. Joe’s—St. Joseph’s University—right on the border of the city and suburbs, actually not far from Villanova (which is a bit more widely known). But it was a great school—about 1,000 kids, and pretty much everyone knew everyone else. About 50% were from the local area, 50% from elsewhere, but there was easy access to downtown Philadelphia and to beaches about an hour and a half away. I had a blast. Of all the people I know, I think I had a better college experience than they did. And the professors, the university, and the friends I made there—it was a nice little hub city.

Look at that. I live in Sacramento, California, and I’m an hour and a half from San Francisco—and about an hour and a half from any beach or mountain. That’s what I enjoy about Sacramento: we’re a nice little hub city. I can jump into the craziness of San Francisco’s tech scene or retreat back to my safe cocoon here in Sacramento. Plus, we have good airports, and we can travel wherever we need. So yeah, that’s cool. What was your major?

Michael Brenner
I went in as an undeclared business major. St. Joe’s is a liberal arts school, so you go in undeclared, but you do pick a school. I chose the business school undeclared. Then I took my first finance course and realized I didn’t want to be in the business school—math was never a strong suit. But I stuck with it and graduated with sort of an informal business minor; I took all the credits for a business minor (plus some finance) but ended up graduating with an English Literature degree, which I loved. And there’s a study (I graduated in ’18) showing that liberal arts majors sometimes actually outperform business majors or MBAs in progressing up the management chain. So it served me well. I learned how to communicate, think critically, and write a sentence, which is always helpful. Ultimately, I think it served our speaking careers too—it taught me the fundamental components of a story.

I think that’s awesome—especially these days. It’s interesting how that whole journey plays out. In my college experience, I ended up graduating with a marketing degree, but for a while, I considered finance. Then I took accounting—both micro and macro—and a finance class, and I thought, “Oh my god.” I get the premise, and I’m really grateful for my accountant. Otherwise, we’d probably be bankrupt if I handled our finances.
It’s just one of those things—you either pick it up easily, or you look at it and think, “God help us all; I definitely need some outside expertise.” That was me, so marketing became my focus. My mom would ask, “Are you doing finance?” and I’d say, “Well, I can spell ‘finance,’ but the rest gets complicated.” It’s like coding—I took a few coding classes, hoping I could at least understand it well enough to work with my team. After that first semester, I thought, “I should just pay them more,” because staring at code and blinking wasn’t making anything click.
Same goes for you: you found your comfort zone and a direction you liked. With your background in English, that’s got to be a major asset now. You’ve written books, you’re doing all this great content creation. Honestly, I’m a writer—using the term loosely. I wish I’d spent more time on my English skills. Big shout-out to my editors, because without them (and my accountant), we’d still be broke. That’s what I keep telling my son, too: you need a solid foundation. It’s not just about getting a certain grade; it’s about really learning it.
People might wonder if English can “go anywhere,” but with what you’re doing—content marketing, writing books—it’s enormously beneficial. That’s why I find it so interesting to see people’s paths and where they ultimately end up.

Michael Brenner
Yeah, I’m kind of a nerd when it comes to geeking out about the components of effective storytelling. If you could see my desk, I’ve got index cards all over it with different formulas for telling stories—like Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey, the Pixar approach, and a number of different ways you can structure a story. I just find it really fascinating. It’s one of the things I’m thinking about for my next book—although it’s kind of a saturated space—just the importance of storytelling, no matter what you do. If you think about the pandemic, for example, the CDC needs to figure out how to communicate information in a way that emotionally engages people. Or look at CEOs or CFOs; they need to learn how to tell a story, whether they’re running a business, a finance department, or even a global health organization. All of those roles rely on connecting with people through stories. So yeah, for me, it’s something I nerd out over. If I can find a niche or angle that’s unique, that might become my next book. I don’t know—we’ll see.

No, that’s awesome. That’s exciting. Yeah, I do think storytelling is key because otherwise everybody’s just spitting out information, right? You can educate people, but the real trick is making a story unique so it engages the audience. That’s the hardest part—especially when you talk about the CDC and all that. It’s like, they’ve got the doctors, the scientists, the updates, and now they have to present it so people actually pay attention. You don’t want to come out like a clown or anything, but if you can make it more engaging, then people better understand what’s going on. I think that’s the hardest part. Storytelling is a science—it’s hard. We have formulas for writing, but even then, it’s still not easy. It does make sense that people want to share crucial info with the masses and get them to engage, or at least understand better, and hopefully shift their behavior if needed—especially in an environment like the one we’re in now.

Michael Brenner
Yeah, and the myth I’d love to bust, if I could, is that a lot of people—and I even thought this at some point—look at these authors and think, “Wow, I remember reading them in college. I could never write like they do. I couldn’t. I’m not a natural-born storyteller.” But you can learn it. That’s one of the things I’ve realized: if you become a little bit of a superficial student of the art, you start to see there’s a formula—there are techniques anyone can apply. Actually, I did a webinar for Harvard Business Review on the art of storytelling for startup founders and small business owners, because it’s so important when they’re trying to get funding. Some of the formulas that are out there—and it’s actually one of the most downloaded HBR webinars of the last two or three years—tell me there’s something there. Those are some signals I look for from the universe to decide if this is a topic I should double down on. So we’ll see.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Which is why it’s such a big deal. I mean, storytelling—I’ve mentioned it in past podcasts—is so important. Take wine as an example: when you have someone next to you and you’re trying a glass or a bottle at a vineyard, and they’re telling you the story of how Giuseppe came over with one gold nickel and one seed from Italy, from the region of “blah blah blah,” then he started in Napa Valley, did this and that, and his family worked there—37 hours a day out of 24—and you’re like, “Oh my God, poor Giuseppe,” because there’s this whole story behind it. Now you try the wine, and you’re thinking, “Oh my God,” because at that point, you’re drinking a story, right? It’s like, all the effort and history went into this, and people love that. The same thing with beers: “We add this, we do that,” and the story brings it all alive. I guarantee if you had that same wine without anyone telling you the story versus someone explaining it all, your impression of that wine or beer would go way up. It brings out passion; you get excited and engaged because of the story. It’s hard to do, but it’s important. Yeah, exactly.
So tell us a little bit: once you got out of college, what was your first job?

Michael Brenner
It’s kind of funny. I was actually fired from my first job before I even started. I wanted to get into consulting, and I graduated in ’93—we were coming out of a recession. I interviewed at a couple of the big consulting companies, competing with the top, smartest minds around the country for very few positions, and just didn’t make it. I ended up working for a market research company called Nielsen—many people have heard of them. They had an account management role open outside Philadelphia, working on the Johnson & Johnson account. If I’m allowed to say so, I think I am Johnson (laughs). And Johnson fired the company I was supposed to be working for—that made my position a requirement—so I got a call on Thursday before I started saying, “Hey, sorry, your job isn’t here anymore, but we do have an opening for a similar role out in Chicago.” So I was actually rehired the next week, but I had to move to Chicago for a similar role supporting the Wrigley gum company.
Nielsen, if you know the TV ratings side of it, is really a measurement company. They also measure things sold in supermarkets. They’re very, very busy right now. Any manufacturer or retailer that sells anything with a barcode—that’s what they track. They measure those four Ps of marketing, if you will. So yeah, it’s kind of interesting. I was selling data to the world’s greatest marketers, using that data around the four Ps—that was essentially my first job.

That’s funny. So they were like, “Hey, by the way, we hired you for this job, and you’re fired, but then we want you to move to a new city, and you’ll have a job there—but we promise it’ll be secure.” You’re like, “Hmm, I got fired from my first job, which was local, and now you want me to move somewhere else?” Then they say, “Pinky swear, this job in Chicago is going to be secure.” How long were you in Chicago for?

Michael Brenner
So it’s funny—I was there for three years, single, right out of school. Eventually, I worked my way into a marketing role that was based in New York, and I was allowed to commute about two days a week from Philly. This was before remote work became popular, so it was a bit of a battle, but I managed to move back to the area. I was in Chicago for two and a half years when I met my wife, got engaged, and then the Thursday before our wedding, they asked me to move back to Chicago for their global headquarters—with my wife this time. So, in total, I spent three years there single, and then three years there married, which was interesting. And honestly, Chicago is my favorite city in the world. It might not have the beaches, mountains, or ski resorts nearby, but 60% of the U.S. population is within a two-hour drive of Philadelphia, so there’s a lot to see there, too. But I really loved Chicago and had a great time there.

I’ll admit, I’m a little bitter about Chicago. Let me explain—it’s nothing to do with the city or the people. I was supposed to be a keynote speaker at an Oracle event, which was happening right around now—maybe last week or this week—and my wife and I had planned to fly out for six days, with me speaking just 20 minutes. The rest of the time, we were going to frolic around, stay at beautiful hotels, visit restaurants, all of that. This was a few weeks back, but then everything got canceled because of the coronavirus. At the time, I said to my wife, “Maybe we should still go,” and she said, “You’re nuts,” which turned out to be correct. It wouldn’t have worked anyway. I’ve only been to Chicago a handful of times and haven’t spent much time there, so I’m a bit bitter—but not at the city, just at the virus. Anyway, you enjoyed Chicago—then what? How did you start the Marketing Insider Group? How did that transition happen?

Michael Brenner
Yeah, so, to make a long story short, I was with Nielsen for nine years—about half of that in sales and half in marketing. Then we moved back here; I managed to get the company to move me back to Philadelphia, working remotely. At that point, I had a great mentorship with the CMO, who was two layers above me. He said, “Listen, there are four people reporting to me (or six, whatever it is), and none of them are leaving. I’m not leaving. The company’s offering packages right now, and we’d love to keep you, but you’ve basically hit the ceiling.” I was only 28. He told me, “You should take this package and go do something else.” So I did. I took the package—had six months of severance—and left on great terms. I’m still friends with almost everyone I worked with there.
I ended up at a couple of startups, and as I like to say, that’s where I learned to do marketing without a budget. At the time, it was essentially marketing with content, what we now call content marketing. We didn’t use that term back then, or at least I wasn’t aware of it, but that’s what I was doing—taking a couple of company websites, generating traffic and leads, implementing Salesforce, setting up marketing automation, and seeing really strong, “hockey stick” results.
After that, I was recruited to be the first head of digital marketing at SAP, where we focused on content-driven lead generation. The success of that program is basically all in The Content Formula. Since it worked so well, they asked me to head up a new global content marketing role that had never existed. I helped define the role and then ran it. So I spent about seven and a half years at SAP—first in digital, then in content marketing.
I did some content marketing strategy consulting for a software startup for just over a year, and that’s where I learned the process I wanted to use with my own clients. So in June 2015, I started Marketing Insider Group, really focusing on developing content marketing strategies—all based on those practical lessons I learned in corporate marketing departments and startups. And that’s what we’ve been doing ever since.

So it’s a nice little mix, because you grew up with almost unlimited budgets—companies like Wrigley. They’re not literally unlimited, but last I checked, their pockets are pretty deep, and they’ve got money to try new things. Then you go to the starving-startup world where the budget is basically zero, and you’re told, “Make that work.” Meanwhile, you’re like, “Wrigley had 10 million for that campaign,” and now you’ve got nothing. It’s really interesting how in the corporate world, people assume huge budgets, while in the startup world, you’re pivoting, hustling, and doing more with less. That dichotomy—seeing both sides—is awesome for a marketer. It’s like being in the middle, understanding both extremes. That’s great.

Michael Brenner
What’s interesting is that I see a lot of people focusing on industry segments or niches—they focus on B2B versus B2C, big budgets versus small, large organizations and their politics versus smaller, leaner ones. But I’ve found those differences aren’t always relevant. What’s true for every company is that you want to grow in a way that delivers a return on investment, and you need to figure out how to navigate your organization’s culture to build enough confidence, as a marketer, to propose and defend the things that drive results.
So really, the two books I’ve written—The Content Formula and Mean People Suck—are meant to address those points. The Content Formula is all about delivering guaranteed results with content marketing, even if you work somewhere that won’t let you do the marketing you know will work. It’s a way to break through that impasse—breaking through the politics and focusing on customers, because that’s the best way to deliver value. My career has basically followed my frustrations, if you will, and those books are my way of giving back and helping people navigate those challenges.

Which I think is awesome, because it is. I mean, that’s the value of not only books but even the internet today—a lot of people (well, a good amount of people) write about what they’ve learned or haven’t learned, and share their frustrations. I think that’s great because now you can go to someone’s blog, and they’ll show you exactly what they did to be successful. That’s exactly what you’re talking about in The Content Formula: literally, “Here’s the formula we used.”
Fifteen or twenty years ago, most people wouldn’t have talked about that—like, “No way, this is my secret sauce; I can’t tell anybody.” But now, there are so many phenomenal resources where you can see exactly how things were done, what worked, what didn’t, and how they adjusted. I love that. We’ve discussed this in past podcasts about mentorship, reading books, and education. Sure, a university education is great, but on the other hand, you can read a book in, say, 24 hours and really boost your knowledge by 10, 20, or 30%. It doesn’t get much better than that.
So, tell us a little bit about The Content Formula. I know you touched on it a bit, but it’s a bestseller and has had some phenomenal successes. Go into it a bit more so our listeners can get excited about it—because at the end of the day, they should go pick it up.

Michael Brenner
Thanks. I appreciate it. You know, one thing my publisher keeps emailing me about is how now’s the time to push the book—people are home, they have free time, and I could sell more copies. But I’m actually doing the opposite. I’m not really pushing it. In fact, if your audience wants to reach out to me on LinkedIn, I’m happy to send them a PDF of the book for free.
The book covers how to build the business case for marketing from an ROI perspective, as opposed to just doing something because a senior executive asked for it. One of my most popular lines (retweets when I speak) is, “Behind every bad marketing idea is an executive who asked for it,” and people laugh because it’s true. When I talk to senior marketers and ask, “Why are you doing this? Why are you wasting money here?” they often say it’s because someone in marketing, product, sales, or on the executive team wanted it.
Building the business case is the first step. The second step—finding the budget—is actually easier than people think. That’s because, in every audit I’ve done, 50%, 60%, or even 70% of a marketing budget is wasted on activities that produce no results. Granted, some of those activities are just hard to track. I’m not saying advertising doesn’t work—if you can spend the money, it might help. At SAP, we did a massive, expensive multi-attribution modeling project, and we found that when SAP spent a certain amount on advertising, it did increase the velocity of lead closure. It didn’t identify or close leads, but it helped move them through the pipeline faster by raising awareness. So yes, that can work. But there’s still a ton of marketing efforts—like lead generation programs, event marketing, or email campaigns—that should be measurable but aren’t showing results. That’s where you can find budget.
The bulk of the book focuses on measuring results and showing ROI. I present 10 formulas—calculations anyone can use to measure return on investment, whether you’re trying to reach, engage, convert, or retain new customers. It’s laid out in a logical way, tied together by my SAP story (and a few other case studies) showing how we turned $1 into $7. We did that by building the business case (looking at the many marketing campaigns that delivered zero results), finding the budget, and then implementing a marketing program that delivered real ROI.

I love it. You know, that’s always the challenge—ROI on anything, right? I do a lot of influencer marketing stuff, and I teach a class at UCLA, so it’s always like, “What do we look at? How do we figure out ROI?” especially with content marketing. That’s my team at a big-size agency, and we do a lot of content not just for me but for our customers, too. ROI is one of the biggest things: how do you attribute, say, 10 articles we’ve posted? Maybe they’re SEO-friendly, and they generate leads, but how do you pinpoint that? That’s one of the first things people question. For example, if I do PPC, I know if I spend $1, I might get $3 back or whatever. We can see that—that’s the situation. So it’s like we look at everything and say, “Okay, this is what it is,” which is why being able to show 10 different scenarios, like you did, is awesome. Because it seems like you’ve basically covered everybody. Anyone who reads the book can find something in it.

Michael Brenner
Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I’m happy to share the PDF of the book—The 10 Formulas—if folks just want to go right to the heart of the matter. But it’s been a lot of fun; it’s also been great lead gen for me, as well. I’m now working with a lot of clients who’ve read the book and asked, “Hey, can you come help us do this here?” So it’s been fun. One of the things I did when I started my first blog post back in May 2009—it was titled “Why I’m Starting a Blog,” and basically I just said, “All I want to do is learn.” At the time, I was in the digital function at SAP, leading the digital marketing efforts, and I was thinking, “I’m learning so much, and I’m making mistakes, but I just want to help people.” That’s been my main trajectory—amplified and accelerated because I’ve been trying to help folks. Anything I can do to help your audience, I’m here, just sharing these thoughts so we can achieve that goal together.

And we appreciate that. My goal was the same when I started my blog. I just wanted to share what was going well and what wasn’t, and be honest—either it resonates or it doesn’t. But like you said, we’ve both spent a lot of money learning things, and now we can say, “Hey, based on that research and experience, here’s what might be more successful.” The successes and failures shape who we are today.
By the way, again—reach out to Michael on LinkedIn, and he’ll send over a PDF of his book, which is phenomenal. Most people would be trying to sell it, but you’re giving it away for free, especially at a time when people are figuring out how to retain or increase revenue with the current climate. It’s awesome. We really appreciate that.
So, regarding content marketing—since it’s an elusive subject for some companies—how do you think most marketers get it wrong? Is there anything specific you’ve noticed, maybe three things they should improve upon?

Michael Brenner
Yeah, there are a couple of things. The biggest challenge I see is that a lot of companies still don’t understand that “content” and “content marketing” are not the same thing. Or, as I like to say in my keynotes, “marketing with content” isn’t the same as “content marketing.”
What I mean is, an eBook isn’t content marketing. A single podcast episode isn’t content marketing. A podcast series is, because there’s a consistent commitment. A blog series or a commitment to publish on a regular schedule—that’s content marketing. A YouTube video isn’t content marketing if you don’t own the platform. A Facebook post, boost, or ad isn’t content marketing either. Especially in the UK and Europe, I still see a very campaign-based mentality: you pick a target, define a message, blast it out, and call that “content marketing” because you used content. It’s not.
You can probably tell I get worked up about people saying, “Oh, content marketing is just another name for advertising, or it’s just another name for marketing.” I hope it becomes another name for marketing, but right now most marketing is campaign-based and driven by advertising, and that’s not really content marketing.
So what are some components? First, content marketing can be promotional—but only if it answers a customer question. I say it has to be customer-question-and-answer focused. Sure, customers do ask, “What do you sell?” and “How much does it cost?” But I love using search terms to illustrate that for every one person searching for, say, an SAP cloud computing product, there are 10 or 30 or maybe 300 people searching “What is cloud computing?” or “Why do I need it in my business?” Then they start asking, “Who sells it? Who are the competitors?” Only at that point are they looking for your product. So you need to begin with the larger group asking more basic questions before you get into the direct promotional stuff.
Second, it’s consistent. One eBook, one blog post, or one podcast episode is not content marketing. Content marketing, like a publisher, answers questions every single day—or at least provides easy access to those answers on a regular basis. There’s consistency. In fact, I’ve written a lot about the “magical math of frequency”: going from random to regular to more frequent (weekly, every other day, daily, even a couple times a day) leads to an exponential increase, not just in traffic and social engagement, but in leads. I don’t have a single client that went from random to regular content and didn’t see a 30–400% increase in traffic—and they also saw a similar increase in leads. Like I used to tell my old boss: “It’s just math.” That phrase drove him crazy, but it’s true.
That math of frequency often gets lost in this false choice between “quality” and “quantity.” I’ve never sat down to write a blog post and said, “This is going to suck, but I have to publish on Tuesday.” I do my best every time, and I stick to the schedule. You do your best with every podcast. You’re consistent, and you produce the best you can on that schedule. No one decides to publish something intentionally bad just to crank out more stuff—why would you? So those are a couple of big myths or misunderstandings around content marketing. Sorry if I got too worked up.

No, no—it’s just passion, right? It shows you’re passionate about it, which is great. You hit the nail on the head: frequency is a big deal in getting your message out. Anyone can do two podcast episodes and then say, “It doesn’t work,” or hire one influencer on Instagram and decide influencer marketing is useless. It’s the same with content: you write one blog post, get no traffic, and conclude blogging doesn’t work. It takes time. Just because you do 20 sit-ups a day doesn’t mean you’ll wake up with abs—I’ve tried it, and I’ve only done it twice, and it hasn’t worked!
It’s all about consistency. If you keep at it for five years, like an insurance salesperson who deals with rejection but ends up with a big residual income, that’s how you get results. People quit too soon. It’s the same for podcasts: I ask people what their goal is, and if they say, “I want to make money,” I usually respond, “Then maybe don’t start a podcast.” The same goes for writing a book—unless you’re a rare exception, your first one might not make you rich. You need to know your goals and set realistic expectations.
If you want to do one blog post a month for two years, that’s a slow road. I’ll present three options, and clients see the most expensive one includes more content, but I tell them that’s how you get real traction. And in uncertain times—like with the coronavirus—a lot of businesses say, “We want to pause our marketing budget.” I ask, “Why?” Unless you’re living paycheck to paycheck, it’s a great time to get ahead while others are cutting back. For my company, we’re doubling down on marketing. PPC used to be five dollars; now it’s two because fewer people are bidding. The same with SEO—companies are slowing their content output, so if we increase ours, we’ll move ahead.
There’s a quote (I think from Benjamin Franklin, though I might have it wrong) that goes something like: people avoid opportunities because they’re dressed in overalls and look like work. Frequency requires real effort over time. You have to commit to six months of blogging or 100 podcast episodes. That’s what content marketing is—putting in that time and energy.
Another good point you made is about platforms you don’t own—like Instagram. If you sink a ton of hours or money into building an audience on Instagram, that algorithm can change at any moment. You don’t control it. Owning your website or blog means you can consistently build up content there, and that investment won’t vanish overnight.
It comes down to whether you’re willing to do the work. Ninety percent of people quit after one or two tries. Those who stick with it, consistently publishing and improving, stand out. I’m on my 40-somethingth podcast, and it’s still a lot of work to put together each episode, but we’re finally seeing big traction—around 10,000 monthly downloads. But it took time to get here. In the beginning, my mom wouldn’t even listen! Now people are stuck at home and have no choice but to give it a try.
Anyway, frequency is the key. If you want six-pack abs, you need six months of working out and eating right. If you want a successful podcast, you need to plan on not making money for a while, stay consistent, measure your ROI, and push hard. And with you offering a free PDF of your book, it’s zero cost to pick it up and learn.
Speaking of which, are there any tools you recommend for content marketing? You’ve been doing this a long time—what do you suggest for putting a full program together?

Michael Brenner
Yeah, I love your questions. Again, I’m not sure when you’re going to publish this episode, but I just wrote an article on how to market in a time of fear. It’s totally free—your audience can check it out if they’d like. It’s funny—Katie Martell (who was also going to be at Oracle) published something on LinkedIn around the same time, and I published my piece on my blog site with almost the exact same title, within the same hour, on Friday last week (March 27, I think).
One of the things I talk about is finding your influencers—not just to share tweets, but to co-create for your audience. Right now, people are looking for expertise. Instead of sending out a generic COVID-19 email from your CEO, maybe send an email that says, “Here’s the future of our industry and how it’s being impacted by this pandemic. Here’s an expert we’ve reached out to.” I see companies doing that; I’ve been asked by a few myself. It shows you’re putting customers first.
At the end of March, I also wrote a post about the content marketing tools I use for my own business. One of them is a partner—DivvyHQ, which I use for content calendaring. The others, I’m not affiliated with in any way. I use Hootsuite for social sharing. If you get the pro account, you can semi-automate things: every time I publish a blog post, Hootsuite takes the RSS feed and automatically shares it to my LinkedIn (both business and personal). I don’t recommend automating everything, but it’s a great way to free you up to focus on engagement. For example, in Twitter, I’m not really sharing articles manually (that’s scheduled out); I’m there to thank people, comment on others’ posts, or reply to comments.
Hootsuite has an RSS function to auto-share. I also use Mailchimp to auto-create my RSS newsletter every Monday at 8 AM Eastern. As soon as I publish an article, it’s automatically queued for that newsletter. I use WordPress, like 60% of people around the world do. I also use SEMrush. (Again, I’m only partnered with Divvy; the others I’m not affiliated with.) SEMrush is great for any piece of content I write and for the content we plan for clients. We rely on SEO-driven analytics. You could also use Ahrefs or Moz—just to give equal time. Those are the tools I use on a daily basis, aside from the native Twitter, LinkedIn, and Facebook platforms.

Yeah, so we use SEMrush too. We have a good relationship with them—we actually use all that software as well. Once you’re creating content with intent and keyword-driven approaches, you know, once you get a good enough domain authority, gain some traction, and rank well, then you post more and good things happen. How long have you been writing your blog? You said it’s been almost…what?

Michael Brenner
So my first post was in May of 2009, so it’ll be 11 years in about two months. I think I’m up to 900-some published posts. I started with once a week, then moved up to two a week. Sometimes, like last week, I did three because I wanted to write about “How do you market in a time of fear?” It was on my mind. Even in that post, I talk about how, for me, it’s business as usual because I have a schedule—I stick to it. I’m not trying to be opportunistic in this time of fear. I think it’s awful for brands to run advertising campaigns unless they’re totally related. So for me, writing is kind of therapy. I listen to the questions I get from my audience and try to answer them as best I can in one or two articles a week. And I just wrote another post last Monday about how we generated nearly a million visitors in the last year by following this simple strategy of consistently answering customer questions in our content.

Which is crazy to me, because it’s like—I talked to, you know, Marcus Sheridan?

Michael Brenner
Of course. Marcus, Joe Pulizzi, and Ann Handley—those folks definitely influenced a lot of my success at SAP in the beginning, as well as how I act and work as a consultant.

Well, it’s funny—you talk about something so basic in nature, like if you have a certain search volume telling you people are asking certain questions. You kind of touch on it with the SAP thing: “What the heck is cloud computing?” And then there’s the other side: if your customers are asking you certain questions, and you’re not answering them in a public forum—like if you talk to customer service, and they say, “Hey, we get these same 10 questions,” or “20 different guys have asked the same 10 questions”—then you can blog about that, right? There’s probably going to be search volume around it as well. It’s very simple; you don’t really need to go and do a ton of research. Just say, “Okay, we’ll create content around these specific questions,” and hopefully, if that content indexes at number one, you’ll drive traffic. So, did you guys hit over a million last year?

Michael Brenner
Just under, in the last 12 months. Short of this pandemic impact, we had seen a decrease in traffic. I was doing some Google Trend research and saw that in a lot of B2B search terms—marketing, content, website development—search volume is down about 35 basis points from their highs (you can see that in Google Trends). But I have clients who are actually seeing a 10–20% increase in traffic because they’re writing about how their industry’s being impacted or things their customers should think about because of the current crisis. We were trending at about 100,000 visitors per month, so we would’ve gotten to a million in a rolling 12-month period pretty quickly.

Damn you, Coronavirus. So close. That’s right—you’ll get it. You’ll get it.

Michael Brenner
It’s fun, it’s fun. I have clients—I’m a company of two—and I have clients with tens of thousands of employees worth billions in stock value, and they don’t get a million visitors a year. It’s crazy.

Don’t you love that life of yours? You’ve got some room! You’ve got big budgets!

Michael Brenner
I always love to say you can talk to the one person who’s ready to buy today, or you can talk to that person and the 100 times more people who might be ready tomorrow or the next day. Why would you focus on just that one person? That’s what your sales team is for. It’s amazing how many companies treat their website like it’s just a sales brochure. They miss out on the chance to build trust, have conversations, and grow an audience they can nurture.

Yeah, makes total sense. So tell us about your speaking career—how long have you been speaking?

Michael Brenner
It was kind of organic. I actually worked my way through some pretty intense stage fright and discovered techniques to remind myself it’s not about me and my anxiety—it’s all about the audience. That was the trick that helped me turn a corner.
At SAP, I started getting asked to do webinars. Some of those did well enough that people began inviting me to speak at their events. I always compare it to writing: no one’s a great writer at their very first blog post, but by the time they’ve done 100, they’re pretty good. My first speech was probably terrible, but over time I got more confident. The height of my speaking career was about two years ago, but my health started to suffer, and I was missing my family. As a speaker, you have to chase every gig.
About a year and a half ago, I decided to focus on monthly, recurring revenue—client strategy, content delivery—and stop actively pursuing speaking engagements. I feel awful for friends who rely on speaking right now, but I got lucky. I had two May gigs canceled, but they were small-dollar events. I’ve got a couple more in the fall, though they’re not at the same level I used to command.
I’m still available to speak. If there’s an event I want to attend anyway, it’s great if I get paid to be there. But I have four kids, ages 8 to 16, and they’re in that phase where—normally—I’d be driving them around to practices and after-school stuff. Honestly, I’m happy to be home.

Yeah, yeah. It’s not a bad thing. I look at this whole thing as a recalibration of the world—so much has changed, and while I don’t want anyone to die, I believe there’s a reason behind it all. I’m optimistic some good will come out of this, like people spending more time with their families and worrying less about everything else. I’m just hopeful, you know?
I totally share your anxiety about speaking—that’s real. I’ve mentioned this in past podcasts: five minutes before going on stage, I used to think, “Why am I doing this? Maybe I should leave, fake being sick.” Of course, that’s not practical. Then I’d get up there, and for the most part, it was fine. But that anxiety? Yeah, some people are more afraid of public speaking than dying. At one point, I remember thinking if I happened to die before going on stage, at least I’d avoid giving the talk (though that’s obviously not recommended—you’d miss out on life and family, so not a great plan).
Anyway, we’re getting close to wrapping up. That’s what happens when you’re having fun. So, any new projects you’re working on? I know some might be on hold, but anything else cooking? You mentioned the possibility of another book—maybe you could give our audience a little hint if you’re thinking about it.

Michael Brenner
Yeah, so this is the latest one: Mean People Suck. It was, you know, kind of a passion project. Again, coming from a cultural aspect, I wrote a book starting with the idea that advertising is dead—because I feel there’s so much data behind just pounding promotion and product in front of people, and that’s not the best way to sell. But I really started to wonder why people do advertising. Why do they think marketing is just advertising? And again, I’m not saying advertising doesn’t have its place, but I like to joke: if you ask your mom what marketing is, she’ll say “ads.” If you ask a CFO what marketing is, he’ll say “the ad budget.” You know—the TVs, that stuff we spend money on—and they don’t realize it’s supposed to be a conversation.
So I started with marketing, but it turned into more of a cultural or leadership book—really addressing the fact that we don’t put customers at the center of our organization. I think marketing can lead customer experience transformations across companies. This book’s actually doing better—trending better than The Content Formula did. I have merch, too, so if anybody in your audience wants to buy the book on Amazon, I’ll send them one—just send me a note, and I’ll send a T-shirt as well. I did one speech for an HR publisher most people would know, and the fee from that alone covered the cost of writing the book. So, at this point, every dollar is bringing a return. I’m not an organizational design consultant; I’m not looking to get into leadership development, necessarily—but marketing transformation is certainly on CMOs’ minds. I do believe marketing can lead that transformation, so we’ll see.

Look at this—all gravy after this point. That’s good. Hey, gotta get going—that’s awesome. Yeah, well, cool, you guys. And I will admit that mean people do suck. I don’t care where you are, but if you’re a mean person—especially these days—try not to be mean. That’s my recommendation. I don’t even know what that means exactly; I don’t even know how you’d just “stop being mean.” Maybe look in the mirror and tell yourself, “That was something mean you were about to do.”

Michael Brenner
Don’t do it. I have to give some handling credit for this: if you’re a marketer and you’re doing anything right now—if you have empathy for your customers, or you put, as Ann would say, “make your customer the hero of the story”—you wouldn’t be doing so much of the marketing we’re seeing right now in these times. I saw an ad for Chevy trucks last night. The dealerships are closed. I have friends who work at the Chevy dealership by my house—they’re struggling, they’re fearful. Yet you’re running ads for trucks? Like, what are you doing, Chevy? Those are the kinds of things you’re not—your truck isn’t the hero of your story; your customers should be the heroes. So think of your marketing like that. That’s what “not sucking” means: put your customers, your employees, ahead of your business and your own fears. I think the world would be a better place.

So I’m gonna trump you on this one. I actually saw a Corona commercial two nights ago for beer. I was like, “Oh no, I’m just kidding, that’s terrible.” But I did see it, and I was thinking, “Boy, can they not stop that programming they’ve got?” Probably not. I’m not sure if a lot of people are buying beer right now; not that coronavirus has anything to do with beer, but you know—people see it anyway, they lump the two together.
So, cool. We’re at the end of this thing once again. This might be difficult for both of us—we may not talk every day now, because we know we’ve got the power, we’ve got all the good stuff sorted. Definitely sounds like my wife—“Yeah, sounds good, big guy.”
But here’s the reason I want you to do this: I just put up the number two, and it’s actually three on the podcast. Give us three people, dead or alive, that you’d want to have dinner with. I always like to hear: some people pick musicians; some pick, like, one guy said dinner with Jesus if that’s your thing—that’s awesome. I’m sure anybody out there is like, “Three people? Could be from anywhere, even a past relative.” I’m always intrigued to hear who makes the cut at the table.

Michael Brenner
Sure, sure, definitely. So, my dad passed away 10 years ago—he was diagnosed with lung cancer almost exactly 10 years ago and passed away in just a few months. It was crazy how fast it went. I certainly miss him every day. Strangely enough, during this pandemic, I’ve been dreaming about him almost every night. So I guess I’m looking back for some comfort, maybe. He was my best friend in my adult life, and I feel lucky to have had that relationship.
I mentioned Joseph Campbell. I’m kind of a story nerd, and Joseph Campbell’s probably one of the smartest people around. The insight I love—and I remember learning about this, even after graduating with an English Lit degree—was how he studied foundational stories from cultures around the world and found a common thread. They had a common flow, the hero’s journey that he basically reverse-engineered. It shows that even Aboriginal peoples, with no contact to the outside world, tell stories the same way we do. We’re connected; we’re all the same. I love that aspect of what he did.
Then, of course, you’ve got to bring in a political figure. I picked Martin Luther King Jr. I always say he was like a warrior who could have grabbed a gun or a knife, but instead, he used intelligence and skill to bring people together with hope, optimism, and peace in a way I couldn’t have done. If I’d grown up during that time, I probably would’ve been pretty angry. So I give him a lot of credit for not being a physically angry individual but using spirituality and intelligence to inspire millions of people and create what I see as a step toward—maybe a march toward—equality.

Yeah, for sure. I love it. The table’s looking pretty good. Absolutely, absolutely. So Michael, if anybody wants to connect with you—this has been awesome having you on the podcast—where can they find you? I know you mentioned LinkedIn; can you give us the details for your site as well?

Michael Brenner
Yeah, sure. marketinginsidergroup.com is where you’ll find my content on marketing and all things content. Meanwhile, meanpeoplesuck.com is where you can buy T-shirts or books. LinkedIn is probably the best way to reach out—just send me a connection request with a personal note. Or just once, if we haven’t already connected, I do try to connect with everyone who doesn’t look like spam. Just send me a message: “Hey, I heard you on the podcast. Can you send me a PDF for free?” I’d be happy to do that.

So I have a question for you: meanpeoplesuck.com. Did you have to buy that domain? Was that available?

Michael Brenner
It was available for a really small amount. Can you believe it? When I heard about it—I have to be honest, my wife and I know we’re over time, but we actually thought we might become billionaires with a fashion brand using the meanpeoplesuck domain and creating T-shirts. I’ve only sold two—two total. So I’ve given up on the idea of becoming fashion millionaires or billionaires. But yeah, who knew that domain would be available?

I would’ve thought someone would’ve been writing a blog about that or something. I figured for sure somebody was either sitting on it or sold it for a ton of money. So you got meanpeoplesuck.com, okay.

Michael Brenner
Really, really affordable. And yeah, I’m writing about one post a week on cultural leadership. There’s some marketing in it, but mostly it’s about how companies need to change and focus on customers and employees.

That’s awesome. Well, Michael, thank you so much for being on the podcast. And you guys, if you’re listening and you like what you hear, make sure you subscribe. As I mention every week, I do have my course coming out—howtobeaninfluencer.com. Go take a look. Again, it’s less about being an influencer who has a Ferrari or a pink poodle and eats caviar on weekends, doing yoga on Tuesdays, and more about being an entrepreneur, putting your campaign together, learning how to talk to brands, pitch them, negotiate, and all that fun stuff. So check out howtobeaninfluencer.com. Michael, thank you once again for being on the podcast.

Michael Brenner
Thanks for having me. It was fun.