SEO For Lead Generation: A Discussion With Brafton’s CMO, Jeff Baker

Welcome to the Marketing Growth podcast. I’m your host, Shane Barker, and my guest today is Jeff Baker, the Chief Marketing Officer of Brafton, a Boston-based content marketing agency.

In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about SEO, content marketing, and Brafton’s approach to lead generation. Let’s get the conversation started.

Where did you grow up? Where was the foundation?

What’s the city?

Oh, I know where that’s at. I went to a concert there. I do, absolutely, I do. Yeah, I went there to go see Tribal Seeds. This was about a year, year ago, year and a half ago.

So how big is your family growing up? How big is your family in the commune that you lived in?

So tell us an interesting fact—other than the fact that your brothers aren’t your brothers or somebody else’s. But anyways, give us an interesting fact. Anything cool, fun growing up that you went through?

Actually, I did see that.

I did, I did, yeah.

So where do you do this at? Like, where do you race canoes? Like a river, but…

Oh, I can imagine. How far is the route when you’re in the canoe? How far does it go?

God, that sounds like seven miles too large. But then obviously you guys go to Lagunitas afterwards, and life is good again, right?

Now I could do eight miles. Okay, so I gotta figure out the whole procedure first, and then that makes more sense to me.

So where did you go to college? You go to college in California as well?

There we go. And that’s good for the earth, right? That’s all we care about.

What did you go to school for? What was your degree?

Isn’t it crazy? But when did you graduate though?

It took me ten years. We’re literally… Jesus.

We might have the same dad or something. I’m nervous to tell you what my dad’s real name is, because we might have some; I mean, look at Baker and Barker. I mean, there’s just one letter missing. Who knows, man? Glad we’re sitting down, because it’s just—it’s a lot to take in right now. So how did you—how did you jump into the SEO space? What was your journey out of college? You’re in Sonoma, which is awesome—great wine country, hippies everywhere, love and peace. So what was your journey? Did you bleed into San Francisco and start doing stuff there?

Well, it’s funny because you’re obviously very much a creative, right? That’s what’s interesting. I love talking to fellow people who do SEO—because of what their background is and how they got into it.

People get into it for different reasons. I like doing SEO stuff because I like the competition of it. Half the time, it could be a keyword that I know somebody else is going after, and if I get number one for it—man, I feel better about it at night.

It’s like I just slapped someone down to the number two spot. Of course, when I get slapped down to number two or three, I’m like, “You little bastards, I’m gonna come back and I’m gonna spam you and your family or something.” I mean, it gets personal.

Yeah! So it’s an interesting thing. SEO is a science, right? It’s the idea of putting everything together and seeing how people react to it. Definitely interesting.

So you went from there—you were working with all your super cool friends from McKinsey that you’re probably still friends with, sounds like today… So what was the next step?

Super awesome. Yeah, tell my clients that I’m glad you left, by the way, if you’re listening to this, I’m glad. I don’t miss you at all, because I found a better client that pays on time and loves me and understands the value in what I do.

Sorry, I feel better. God, I feel better. That was, like, a good moment. Yeah, no, I’m just…

I just blacked out for a second. I’m glad I came to, like, literally just lost it. Like, little Irish lost it, and then I’m down. Back. We’re good.

I don’t even remember it. I’m not sure what happened. That’s the reason why I do video on this too, so that I can rewind into what happened. I actually lost it again on the podcast. He started crying. He gets real emotional about when session talks about SEO and stuff.

So Brafton—you’ve been at Brafton for what, seven plus years now?

Yeah, that’s awesome. And the content—so it’s funny, we, as myself, have invested in content marketing about probably eight years ago. We started doing—I mean, now we do heavy content as well.

Not as, probably not as big as… well, how big is Brafton? Like, how many employees do you guys have?

Most people are remote. I didn’t know that.

That’s awesome. And I was gonna kind of ask you about that, because obviously you’re out traveling right now, right? And so getting work done and getting things done… I mean, my home team’s remote as well. I had a past company—130 employees—that was all in-house, and I was like, I’ll never do that again.

So now it’s nice because I can go anywhere. I can travel, I can do this, and my team’s all—you know—project management software, everything like that. It makes it easy to be able to get it going. And, you know, you can access software anywhere and all that as long as I don’t have to do video or do anything that I need to be on location. You know, it’s kind of—the world is your oyster.

So, I mean, I am a little jealous that you’re out running around like that in another country right now, and I’m not running around too. So it’s—well, you know, I’ll figure it out. I’ll medicate myself. Be careful. Be careful. I might be that 6’1″ guy with a red beard that comes and gives you a hug and be like, “Hey, I made it.” You’re like, “You are crazy. I can’t believe you walked here from Sacramento.”

So tell us a little bit—some of the stuff, because obviously you’re big on the analytics side of things, right? You like testing. Obviously, Brafton was a great test place for you because you had a good—a lot of traffic, right? The idea of A/B tests—you have to get some traffic and see what’s working.

So tell us a little bit—some of the lead generation strategies that you’ve done, that you’ve implemented at Brafton that have been a success. I mean, obviously, you guys have case studies and stuff on the website, but give me—is there anything that you’re like, “Hey, this is some cool stuff that we’ve been working on. We tried this, and this was phenomenal.” Is there anything—any fun stuff you can give us?

Yeah, and that—but how do you—that’s kind of the question of the day. So when you see that, obviously, over time, when you see that organic traffic, and you see those things coming through, it’s obviously phenomenal.

How much traffic are you doing a month, approximately, on Brafton?

Yeah, no, I get that. I mean, it’s always—yeah, I was just at a conference, and Neil was speaking there. We had a little conversation afterward.

I only went and talked to him because I had beat him out with some keywords—let him know he’s losing in different areas. He’s pumped. He loves that kind of stuff. He loves it when I come and talk trash. So—not always. It’s not, you know… anyways, it was fine. We were able to work it out.

But it’s cool, man. So you guys have seen some big strides there in regards to, like, how you put your content out—of the type of content you guys put out for more intent, right? The people that are looking for your services.

That’s awesome. So what—I mean, I see obviously since you’ve been working with Brafton for so long—and you like—what are… and you kind of touched on Neil Patel and obviously Brian and Backlinko… what are some other companies you feel are kind of crushing it from a content and SEO perspective that put a good combination of that together? Because, you know, it’s funny—you look at Brian’s strategy versus Neil’s—are two very different strategies, right? I mean, you have Brian that puts out content like, whatever, once a month, whenever it is. It’s very inconsistent, but he puts out these big, crazy pillar pieces. And Neil probably puts out a lot more consistent stuff, but in the revamping of his content.

Like, what have you—what other companies, what other people, individuals—do you see that you’re like, man, they’re doing a phenomenal job? They’re kind of on your radar.

Yeah, that’s exactly it. Well, and, you know, I say that not to talk bad about them, because I do write for them. But, you know, like, Inc. is one of those ones that it’s like—yeah, there we go, I’ll just say it. So I probably will never be able to write for them again. But, you know, I mean, a lot of the stuff that I read—it’s like, “Oh, the three things that Elon Musk did to become a billionaire.” And I’m like, “Why am I clicking on this?” And I click on it—it’s like: “Focus. He focused, and he drank tea, and he, you know, stays up for 12 hours.” And I’m like…

With three goats. So I’m like, “Oh, the goats! Okay, I don’t have goats. That’s probably why.” But I don’t know. It’s just interesting when you see that, because obviously some of them are higher—I mean, what’s getting more on the education side of things and less about just putting out content to put out content.

Like, I’ve seen it with Huffington Post just recently—they’ve started doing a lot more new stuff. I don’t know if it’s just on my radar or why that is. I don’t remember that before, because they were doing…

So anyways, it just kind of seems—I don’t know. I mean, people make their switch with regards to content because of whatever they’re looking for, right? Whether that’s impressions and they want to sell ad space, or whatever that is. So, you know, they have certain numbers that they have to hit. And I guess everybody has different KPIs or things that they have to be able to go to the higher-ups and say, “Hey, we’re doing this,” and, “We’re generating more traffic,” and whatever that may be.

So cool. So you’ve got Neil Patel, you’ve got Brian. Is there anybody else? And you said Institute…

I interviewed Rand a week ago—yeah. And this part is funny, so if you haven’t listened to the Rand episode, you’ll have to check it out.

Years ago—maybe seven, maybe ten; I’m terrible with dates—I was at Dreamforce with my wife. We’d stopped at a Mel’s‑type diner when I noticed Rand and a bunch of other speakers eating there. At that point I wasn’t on anyone’s radar—not even my own—so I said to my wife, “I’m going to buy their dinner and leave without saying who did it.” She asked why. I said, “I don’t know, I just want to.” I told the waitress, “Put their tab on my card, but don’t tell them who paid—just say it was random.” We paid and left.

Fast‑forward a few years. My brother—who worked at CreativeLive in San Francisco—told me he was going to interview Rand Fishkin. I said, “I’ve got a crazy story about him,” and I told my brother. He never shared it with Rand at the time, but when Rand later agreed to come on my podcast, I decided I’d ask if he remembered.

During the interview I said, “Hey, man, I need to ask you something weird. Back at Dreamforce, someone bought your dinner at a Mel’s Diner, and you never knew who it was.” Rand turned to his wife—Jodine—and said, “Do you remember that?” She did. Then he told me they’d paid it forward—they bought dinner for the next table and left without saying anything. I thought that was awesome.

Honestly, I still don’t know why I did it, other than thinking, “One day I’ll tell this story on a podcast and it’ll be awkward but cool.”

Anyway, we had a great conversation about Google—Rand was saying, “I really wish I weren’t doing this,” and talking about taking on the big dog. I appreciate that. I’ve done similar things: in another business I was once sued for $65 million and had to fight the Attorney General—but that’s a whole other story.

I’ve never shared this on the podcast. In 60 seconds: I once ran a business that sued banks on behalf of people hurt during the mortgage crisis—elderly homeowners, non‑English speakers who never had translation for their loan docs. At our peak we had about 1,500 lawsuits against Bank of America, Wells Fargo—the biggest banks out there.

I was young and thought, “I’m helping people and making money—win‑win.” But when you go after billion‑dollar organizations with armies of lawyers, it gets ugly fast. One day I’ll write a book or shoot a movie about it; the story is that crazy. Bank investigators followed me around in black SUVs for six months. Shout‑out to Bank of America—if I disappear in Bolivia next week, you’ll know why.

So, yeah, when Rand talks about taking on the “big dogs,” I get it. Just remember: there’s the legal fight, the PR fight, and the unexpected stuff you can’t see coming.

Anyway, Jeff Baker managed to pull that confession out of me, so here we are. Let’s switch gears. What emerging trends are we seeing in marketing right now? Influencer marketing, AI, machine learning—what’s on Brafton’s radar? I know you want that influencer‑marketing tattoo and fifteen minutes of fame—kidding, keep that in! But seriously, which trends look interesting to you?

Yes! Dude, those guys are crazy, and they’re growing!

What I think is—isn’t that how we first met? I think I figured—when you say—because saying that, I was like, I just had to—I could look this up, because I have written for you guys. And we did—I don’t know what webinar, I don’t know what it was. I can’t remember what it was.

But I just was looking and I’m like, look at you! February 4, 2018, my friend. We’ve been friends for a long-ass time. So yeah, it was Lauren and Allie and all these—so anyways, I just was looking at that when you were saying that. I was like, they’re definitely doing that strategy for a little while, because I know I was a part of it a little, because I was going to give you a hard time like, “Oh, why haven’t you reached out to me?” And I was like, “Oh, but maybe they have.”

So I get it. So it was early part of that. I was an early part of your early process. So I’m proud of that, proud of that. Hopefully, you guys fly to the moon.

I’m an easy win, man. I really am. I put up, like, no fight. I’m like, “Oh, interview? Can I—people talk about me? Can I talk about myself?”

No, dude. I’m like—you know, other people are like, “Well, I don’t really know. Let me ask some questions.” I’m like, “Dude, let’s interview. Let’s chat. Let’s—whatever we need to do.”

I mean, I think you guys even gave me a little cartoon character of my face or something. I do remember—this is all coming back to me—because it made me look cute. Yeah, I’ll take a caricature. I think I shared the hell out of that thing. I was like, “Man, look at this! Mom, look—I’m in a cartoon!”

No, I literally—it probably took me two years to grow this beard, and this is where we’re at today. So, like, the full beard that nobody can see.

How quickly can you grow a beard? Like, just brag. How fast?

I hate you. And I did just say that out loud. I mean, thing for me—like, this has literally taken me two years. And if I was to shave it—you can’t see it on the podcast—but if I was to shave it, there’s parts under here that they just—they have to overlap for it to look like anything. If not, it looks like I’ve had—yeah, exactly, yeah. It’s—it’s a delicate balance, but it’s a delicate balance to be able to stay this striking. Be good-looking with a red beard. So, you know, it is what it is.

But let’s—I mean, I know that we could talk about, you know, how awesome we are and the beards and everything, and I know that we could probably do a whole other podcast about that.

But what are three tools that you guys use—or that either yourself individually, or even at Brafton—what are three tools that you’re like, SEO tools that you’re like, “Hey, we can’t live without these”?

Yeah, well, we use—those are the tools we—I mean, there’s a lot of tools for everything. I agree with you. There’s certain things that we use for certain things.

And certainly, you know, it’s like, you can look at one and they say, “Hey, there’s 5,000 searches,” and the other one there’s like, “There’s 2,200,” and you’re saying, “Okay, I mean, yeah—it’s just a general idea.” But yeah, it’s like, “Okay, well, I think it’s somewhere in this vicinity. I think it should be fine.”

Thanks, Jeff. It’s been a really fun conversation. I still have a lot of questions for you about your work and what it’s like to travel with remote work, but we’ll cover that in the next segment.

For today, let’s call it a wrap. Before I sign out, I wanted to remind my listeners that you can always reach out to my team for any help related to SEO and content marketing.

We can help you optimize your content so that it ranks higher in the SERP. For more details, check out shanebarker.com. That’s all for today—please stay tuned for the next episode of the Marketing Growth Podcast.