How Content and PR Can Work Together with Amy Higgins

Welcome to the podcast. I’m Shane Barker, your host of Shane Barker’s Marketing Madness Podcast. Today, we’ll be discussing how PR and content work together. My guest, Amy Higgins, is the Director of Content Marketing at Sojern, a media company specializing in data-driven travel marketing. She’s also a member of the Red Curtain Addict and a judge for the Content Marketing Awards presented by the Content Marketing Institute. Listen as she talks about the changing world of PR and content marketing. Stay tuned till the end to find out how she combines these strategies effortlessly. Just to start, where did you grow up? Where are you currently? Let’s start there.

Did you move in at like four or something?

Wow, very young. You were a mover and shaker at an early age! I didn’t know you were in San Francisco—I’m in Sacramento. I could probably see you from here. My brother lives in San Francisco, not that you’d know him, of course, because it’s such a huge city.

True, especially when it comes to content and marketing. So you’ve lived there for a few decades?

That’s it. Just up and down, up and down, up and down, and you’ve been a part of it, like on the roller coaster and just probably riding a little more straight.

You did! You saw the aftermath and thought, “I want to be a part of the next one.” You wanted to be there when it all burns down.

Galveston. Okay, here goes a fun fact. Well, the fun fact is, I don’t know when this podcast is going to come out, so I’m going to tell you something, and this could happen a month later, but I’m actually going to Austin in one week. Now, I’ve never been to Austin.

So, here’s the thing—I’m a big food, music, and fun person. I’ve talked to so many people from Austin, and they all say, “Oh my God, you’ve never been to Austin?” I got so tired of saying no, so I literally planned a trip just to tell people I’ve been to Austin. I’m all about finding solutions to potential problems. So, I thought, why not plan this trip? Well, I’m terrible at that too, but you know me. I’m going to Austin, and I couldn’t be happier. I’ve got some big commerce and other clients to meet with, but the exciting part is I realized I know so many people in the Austin area, and I didn’t even know they were there! I’m going to be there for four days, and I’m already thinking it’s not enough time to shake enough hands and kiss enough babies. But I’m really excited about it! So, shout out to Texas and everyone there!

That’s what I heard, yeah. Have you ever been to Asheville, North Carolina? They call it the “San Francisco of the East Coast.” I don’t know why I think of Austin in a similar way, even though the landscapes are very different. There are so many fun cities I haven’t been to yet, and it bothers me. I feel like I need to go and figure out why they’re so fun. I’m going to do my research, thats how you end up in San Francisco.

That’s awesome. Yeah, she based it around the city. I mean, that’s not a bad idea. My son actually based his college decision on YouTube videos of Girls Gone Wild to figure out which college he wanted to go to. Oh, he didn’t. I’m telling you this for content, but it’s some juicy information. My son came to me and said, “Either I want to go to Chico State, which, if you know, is in Sierra Nevada, and I used to own a bar in Chico—whole other conversation—or I want to go to ASU, Arizona State University.” So, I feel like he just picked the top 10 party schools within a 500-mile radius, and then maybe some others, like San Diego and a few more. But I feel like those were the two options he brought to the table.

Interesting, right? But I think he picked his major based not on wanting to be in business or anything. I’d ask, “What’s the program like?” And he’d say, “It’s good.” I’m like, “That’s not a solid answer. Good, or not good, or great. Those are the three options.” Anyway, he’s at Chico State now, and he’s actually coming home, so I’m excited about that. But anyway, those are just some side notes. You can pick your college based on Girls Gone Wild or whatever. And that’s awesome. You based it around the city you wanted to live in, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

So, how big was your family growing up in Texas?

Isn’t that funny? One side’s like three, and the other’s like 500. Yeah, exactly. The Irish Catholic thing, that makes sense. So, it’s funny. I’m Irish, my wife’s Italian, but we don’t have thousands of kids that we know about, and all these relatives. We’ve got a good amount, but nothing like that. You guys were definitely putting in the work. Yeah, the population thing definitely increased because of them. So, tell us an interesting fact about your family—something growing up that we wouldn’t know. Obviously, there’s nothing related to content, but I’m just kind of intrigued by your Texas upbringing.

See, that’s what I want. Is your grandma still around? Oh, God, I would want to meet her because that’s my kind of woman. I mean, not that we would need anything, because I’m happily married, but that’s awesome. So, she was bringing back the whiskey.

Was that her mafia name, O’Higgins? Is that her?

Oh, gotcha. Just so people wouldn’t know you’re Irish. They were like, “Hey, take out the O’, and nobody will know.” So this is what’s funny. My wife’s family—once again, has nothing to do with content, but we’re gonna deviate—came over as Patalucci, and then they didn’t want it to be Patalucci because they were like, “Hey, we want to be American.” I’m assuming this. And so they made it Pattalack. And they’re like the only Pattalack in the world because there’s Pattalack—it’s like, P, A, T, T, A, L, L,(A), C, K. So anyway, they’re the only Pattalacks in the world, even though their last name is Patalucci. It’s interesting that when you—Ellis Island, or whoever came through—how they kind of changed things a little bit. And now I like the O. Like, I would rather—well, not rather—but I think it’s cool because you’re like, “Oh, that’s awesome. O’Higgins, here. O’Higgins.” I didn’t know that. Like, it was her mob neighbor, so I didn’t know if she was bringing whiskey and stuff, any guns or anything like that, drugs or just…

They might pop up, right? You’re gonna be like, “Oh my God, O’Higgins, there she is again.” Okay, so when you went to San Francisco—after you went back—did you end up attending college in San Francisco?

Yeah, but in high school, right? Junior high school?

So was that before or after they filed the restraining order? Was that—or did they already have that in place, or was that…?

I like it. You’re like, “Listen, you’re gonna hire me, whether you like it or not. I promise you. Because I can buy stamps—I can do this all day, lady. I can send you letters all day.” I think it’s awesome, though, because it shows perseverance. Actually, I have a few friends, and I’ve even done that myself, where I’m just going to keep hitting someone up until they respond. Because I think, if I was an employer, it also shows me somebody is really serious. Like, obviously, I’m serious because I’m practically stalking you and writing you letters. For all the people who don’t know what letters are, I’ll explain that—we’ll put something in the bio at the bottom about what a letter is and how you write one because it’s kind of an old art form that we don’t use anymore. Nowadays, people might say, “What do you mean? I’d just send them a text message or WhatsApp them. What’s writing a letter?” It’s an old form, like calligraphy and stuff. We’ll explain that later in the podcast.

So how did you go from the fashion industry—which obviously, in San Francisco, I’ve always been jealous of—like, my brother’s style in San Francisco, even though it’s very simple. You can always tell people who live in San Francisco because they have a bit more swagger, right? Sacramento is maybe a little more conservative. But you know, it’s the same thing with people in Europe—you see them, and you think, “Oh, that guy’s from Europe,” or “Oh, that girl’s from Europe.” They have that distinct style. So what caused you to go into the fashion industry and then switch gears into marketing and communications?

This is what I love about podcasts, because you get these stories—it’s funny how you just glaze over it. You’re like, “Yeah, I was bedridden for three years and sick for ten years. Anyway, I’m running a store.” The thing I heard was, “I’m more mechanically inclined than Shane will ever be,” which is totally true because you probably would fix a bike, whereas I’d be like, “Listen, I’m gonna have to talk to Amy O’Higgins to help me with this bike.” That’s awesome. So, I partly want to talk about being sick—not specifically the illness—but in the sense of getting through all that. Again, we don’t have to dive heavily into exactly what was going on, but more so what it took to get through it. I know it doesn’t relate directly to content, but I’m intrigued by this because you seem like a very strong individual. What I mean by that is, you’re like, “I’m gonna go be in charge of a motorcycle shop,” even though you probably didn’t have a ton of experience. But you have that attitude of not taking no for an answer and just doing it anyway. So tell me a little bit about how hard that was. I’m trying to figure out your mindset because you seem to have this mentality of, “Yeah, I’m just gonna do it. I’m just gonna go to Berkeley and do this,” or, “Junior year, I’m just gonna go out to California,” like it’s no big deal—like it’s just a typical Tuesday.

The curve would always mess me up. Like, a lady would be like, “No, I want to get a 104.” I’m like, “No, you don’t. You really don’t. Your 99 is already messing up my 76—I don’t need you going higher.” Oh, I still love you, but go ahead. Keep going.

Yeah. Well, I love your perspective on that because I think life’s all about perspective, right? I hate to say “half-empty, half-full,” but perspective really matters in how people live their lives. Obviously, everyone has ups and downs, but I love that you seem to genuinely appreciate life. There’s definitely something anyone could learn from that, not to be cliché about it. I’ll give you an example—and this has nothing to do with content—but about nine months ago, I was doing CrossFit and hurt my back. Then I went to a chiropractor, who made it worse, ended up in the emergency room, and suddenly my right leg was completely numb. Clearly, I pinched a nerve or something similar. At first, we didn’t know if it was a nerve or the “Pulp Fiction”-style shot the nurse gave me—no joke. My mom and my wife, both nurses, were there; it was crazy. Anyway, the point of this story is about perspective and mobility. Initially, I was frustrated: “This sucks. I can’t run, I can’t box, I can’t do CrossFit.” But then I’d literally be driving down the street and see someone in a wheelchair and think, “You know what? It’s all perspective.” Not to minimize their experience or anything, but it reminds me things are still good—I still have my health, family, and plenty of great things in life. Again, it has nothing to do with the conversation we’re having, but I genuinely appreciate your perspective. You have a great personality, very upbeat, which makes these types of interviews enjoyable. It’s interesting to hear not just what you’ve experienced, but how you’ve turned those experiences into something positive. I also get that sense from your background because you’ve done so many different things. It makes it fun for podcasting—I end up talking maybe 2% about content marketing and 98% about people’s lives, how they got to where they are, and how they view things. You’ve got a great vibe about you.

But we did promise at least 2% content marketing, so I’ll switch gears a bit here. When we talk about content marketing and PR, what would your title be? Titles are always tough for me—people ask what I do, and I’m like, “Ah, titles…” But how would you describe your title, considering you’re involved in content and there’s obviously a PR angle as well?

Okay, that makes total sense. And obviously, there’s a bit of a PR angle as well, right? So, when you say “content strategist,” define what that means to you. What does that look like in your day-to-day role?

And I think that’s what’s interesting—you kind of touched on this a bit—is that part of what you enjoy about being a strategist is that it’s always different, right? For me, that’s exactly what it is. That’s why titles are so tough for me, because there are so many different types of projects we take on that I genuinely enjoy. You know, we might do influencer marketing—great. Or content marketing—awesome. Or SEO—we can knock that out too. It’s hard to pin a single title on it. But I like what you mentioned about content, because what you really are is a project manager. You can project-manage just about anything that needs managing, oversee someone else doing it, or jump in yourself. You’re the kind of person who’s like, “Either I can write it or I can hire somebody else to write it,” but at the end of the day, it gets done.

Yeah, that’s disturbing. I mean, that’s just a lot of content. You know, it’s like 80% of it. Well, that’s kind of crazy.

I mean, it’s like PPC and landing pages, right? If you’re searching for a blue widget and you land on a page selling a green widget—sure, it’s still a widget, but it’s not the widget you were looking for. You see this happen with clickbait-type content too. People read a headline and think, “Oh, this looks great, let me check it out,” but as soon as they open it, they’re disappointed.

I used to write for some sites—I won’t name them, although you probably know exactly who they are—where all the content was really clickbaity. You know, headlines like, “Here are the two things Bill Gates did to become successful,” and you’d open the article, and it’d say something like, “He was perseverant and energetic.” And I’m sitting there like, “Really? That’s it? That’s how he made billions?” I didn’t genuinely think they were going to say, “Listen Shane, don’t tell anybody else, but here’s the actual secret to Bill Gates’s success,” but still, afterward, you’re left thinking, “Why did I even read this?”

That’s what’s interesting about those types of articles. You see a piece of content that, based on downloads or views, looks like it’s the best thing ever, but in reality, it’s also the worst because it’s misleading. Yeah, it’s great people are downloading it, but are they downloading it for the right reasons, or are they ultimately disappointed?

Like you said earlier, there’s this big disconnect. It’s one thing to produce content that’s not phenomenal but at least gives people some helpful information. But in cases like this, it seemed like there was a massive gap between how many people downloaded it and how many actually got something useful out of it.

I think the review side of things is always interesting because of the potential for fake reviews and the controversy around companies like Yelp. Yelp can be tricky, right? Businesses sometimes complain about negative reviews, and Yelp often comes back with advertising offers, essentially saying, “Hey, if you want some help managing those reviews…” But that’s a whole different discussion we don’t need to dive deep into right now.

Still, the review topic itself is fascinating because reviews can significantly impact businesses—either positively or negatively. Many businesses make the mistake of thinking they can ignore them, but they can’t—and shouldn’t. Reviews happen whether you’re paying attention or not. The key is figuring out how to manage and respond to them effectively. Content can also play a big role here. Good content helps shape perception, guides sentiment, and gives people a better understanding of a company or product. It’s closely tied to PR because the content you put out affects how people perceive you.

So, that’s an interesting crossover between reviews, content, and PR—and they all affect one another.

Now, switching gears a bit, obviously you’ve worked at Zendesk and other places. From your perspective, if we’re thinking about content marketing or PR initiatives, which companies do you think are doing really well right now? It could be strictly content marketing, PR, or even both. Is there anybody who stands out to you as doing an exceptional job?

Yeah, and I think we’ve really seen that shift clearly happen in the last several years. I’ll give you an example: When we first started writing my blog—probably seven or eight years ago—our big thing was, “Let’s just offer value.” We didn’t need to talk about Shane’s services all day, because, honestly, nobody cares about my services. What they care about is great information, and then I just happen to be there when they need a solution.

Nike’s a perfect example. They approach content by saying, “Hey, do you want to track your steps, your runs, your workouts? Well, we happen to offer a great solution for that.” But first, they’re educating you about health, fitness, and lifestyle choices. Naturally, you’ll probably choose Nike because you’re already on their website, engaging with their content, apps, and products. It just makes total sense at that point.

And I really love this approach. I always recommend it, even though it’s definitely a longer-term play. Obviously, we don’t all have Nike-sized budgets. But educating the consumer first, then letting them naturally decide to come back if it makes sense—that’s powerful. If you’re consistently providing value—like LinkedIn does, where every time you read their content you pick up these helpful nuggets—it keeps you coming back. Same with Nike; they’re always offering valuable information. Then, when you’re ready to buy the shoe that syncs up with your wristband, your headband, and keeps you fully connected during your run so you can earn credits for it—well, there you go. It’s a natural decision.

We get what you do. We get the services if we want to know about your services. You have that accessible form, but you don’t need to shove it down their throat, right? I think that’s the play. It’s like, “Hey, when you’re ready.” The only downside for me—and we always do this with our clients—is sometimes people are like, “Well, to produce that kind of content takes a long time,” and this and that. It’s a longer-term play. I’ll give an example—our site. Just this last year or two, all my stuff is inbound now. What I mean by that is I’ve spent many years on my blog, writing content and then developing the team out, and now we’re seeing some really good stuff from it. So, again, that’s a longer-term play, but I think it’s the right play. It’s probably a better way to go, because people want to find your product or service. They can, right? That’s not the hard part. They already know what you do. The good part is, if you’ve obviously driven some great content, you’re a storyteller, and you’ve got something going on there, you’re keeping people’s attention.

Yeah, exactly. And that’s—you know, that plays into reviews. It plays into a lot of other things that help validate your product or your service or what you offer. So, what would be three software tools you can’t live without? Or what are three things you think, “Man, if I didn’t have these, life would be so much harder”?

Yeah, exactly. It’s funny you mention analytics because I don’t think people really understand it fully. A lot of companies I’ve talked to say they have analytics, but they don’t really understand them. So when you ask, “Hey, what’s going well?”—that’s probably what you’re reaching out to a marketer for—many aren’t really sure. I’m not certain they’re clear about the goals when they start producing content, either.

It’s like, okay, you’re creating some content—but what’s your goal with it? I’m not sure everyone knows. And then, how do you know when you’ve reached your goal, or what exactly you’re looking for? I think many people produce content without a clear purpose defined upfront. They’re like, “I’m just writing a blog post,” or “I just want some keywords,” but what’s the true goal behind it, and how do you measure it?

Measurement is key—not only for influencer marketing or SEO—but knowing the purpose upfront. Like, why are we here? What exactly are we trying to accomplish? That’s where the disconnect usually is, and I think that’s something important to address.

So everyone was praising it, saying, “This is awesome,” but nobody was actually using it. I mean, they loved it, but thought someone else—like John—liked it a lot more.

And suddenly you’ve gone full circle. You’re like, “Wait a second. Who loves it again? Why are we even doing this? What’s the point?” And they’re probably thinking, “Here comes Amy again. Give it to somebody else.” That’s interesting.

Well, I think what’s interesting about it is—for you—you seem like the type of person you’d want to hire. There’s a lot of “yes” people out there, and you’re clearly not one of them. You’re like, “Sorry guys, I’m not doing that. I’m going to dig a little deeper into this.” I’m thinking, “Oh god, Amy’s going to uncover something we don’t know about.” But at the same time, that’s exactly why you’re here. You’re digging deeper to really understand, “Is this actually working? Why do you think it’s working? How can you prove it’s working?” You ask the right questions: “Show me the reasons, what are our goals, and are we hitting them?”

Yeah, that’s the thing—for you, it’s very analytical, right? You’re exactly the kind of person you’d need, which is awesome, because most people aren’t that way. Usually, all it takes is one person going, “Rah rah rah,” and then everybody else joins in: “Yeah, this is awesome.” But why is it awesome? I don’t know. Shane has his hand up—I don’t know what he’s doing, maybe he’s drunk. But I think that’s what’s cool about your approach. You’re actually digging down and figuring out again, is it good, is it bad, and why is it good or bad. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn’t mean it’s right, especially if you’ve been doing it for a long time. It’s probably not right anymore. Ultimately, you’re questioning, “Hey, you’ve done this for five or ten years, but many things have changed. Technology, your audience, perspectives—there are so many variables to reassess.” Think about the things you’ve done for the last 15 years. I have a question, though—let’s say you’ve been in San Francisco for decades. We’re not going into age, because my mom taught me to never ask a lady her age. But, what advice would Amy today give to Amy in her early 20s? Would Amy listen? Because I know Amy was probably pretty headstrong, like, “Listen, I’m gonna do what I want to do. I’m Amy O’Higgins!”

Why wouldn’t you be, right? I mean, hello!

Were they actual motorcycles, or were you riding a scooter? You weren’t into scooters, right? You were riding real motorcycles. Would you have called yourself a motorcycle chick?

Yeah, I didn’t know—I wasn’t sure if that was a thing. I was never a motorcycle chick or dude. I’m just throwing it out there for the audience that also rides motorcycles.

Yeah, it’s one of those things. But do you think about that often? Do you regret the path you’ve taken?

ChatGPT said:

Now, I have to ask: Would you label yourself a nerd back in the day?

That’s crazy. So, nerd? Yeah, that’s cool. I mean, if somebody identifies as a nerd, that’s awesome. But I don’t think I was necessarily a nerd—I was just tiny, probably weighed about 120 grams total. Just this shriveled little thing that needed to eat every day. But it’s interesting—the whole transition from being a nerd to becoming successful. My son sees people and says, “Oh, that kid’s kind of a nerd,” and I say, “Well, he’s probably going to be your boss someday. You might end up working at his company.” Anyways…

Of course. I mean, why wouldn’t you?

That is too funny. But that’s another important life lesson—how you treat people. You never truly know who someone is, but honestly, that shouldn’t even matter. You shouldn’t treat someone based solely on who they are or what they’ve done. If you treat everybody with respect, being good to them, it’ll eventually come back around. You never know what might happen later on. So I always think it’s good practice to just be kind, be a good person, and pay it forward.

Now, there was something interesting I read about you—a Girl Scout cookie incident or something. Yeah, tell us a little bit about what happened with the Girl Scouts. What’s the story there?

I’ll tell you one of the most brilliant things I’ve seen, and I might be exaggerating a little—but it was genuinely brilliant. Here in California, with marijuana being legal and dispensaries around, I saw Girl Scouts selling cookies right in front of dispensaries.

Yeah, between you and me—do you know how many boxes I bought that day? I mean, I’m just saying I was driving by. I took a friend there because he had a medical card. But I looked at that and thought, “That’s brilliant.” I literally pulled over and probably bought a few boxes. Someone could’ve asked me, “What are you doing?” and I’d be like, “I’m buying a few boxes—that kid is a genius. She’ll probably be the next big software CEO or something.” That’s smart marketing right there. Shout-out to Girl Scout cookies. I was impressed—I thought it was awesome.

Yeah, exactly. Just in case you fall off that wagon, we’re here to support you. We’re definitely not judging if you want to grab a few boxes.

Exactly! Or like when you see a church next door to a liquor store. You wonder why they’re next to each other, but then again…

Right! Makes sense—why wait, might as well hedge your bets on that relationship right from the start. Anyway, I’ve also seen some pictures you’ve shared. This is on a more personal note because you seem to really enjoy setting and achieving goals. I saw pictures of you at Mount Everest base camp. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Just to give listeners some background, what was that experience like? What did you do there?

You haven’t given up yet. We’re doing good.

For me, it would have been like, “Listen, we have a six-pack again at the end of this thing, but you’ve got to get there fast.” I’m like, “Okay, I’m ready. Let’s do it. I’m motivated. Let’s do this. I’m all in.” So obviously, we’ve talked a little bit about your hiking and your traveling. If money wasn’t an issue, where would you live and why?

I’ve been—not to Chiang Mai, but my brother and my dad did. I’ve been to Koh Samui, and I’ve been to Bangkok, which was all really, really fun. I love traveling. For my speaking events, I try to move them around to whatever country I want to visit. It’s like, “Oh, that’s awesome.” For me, it’s like, “Hey, I heard you guys are having a local event. Let me come on down.” They’re like, “Alright, I guess.” They might want me for a month, but we’re just doing this on Tuesday. I’m like, “No, it’s fine. Just invite me out, pay for the plane, and we’ll be fine.” Middle ground, right? I’ve had the travel bug for a long time. My dad and my family—well, I went to school in Costa Rica, which is a whole other story, about 25 years ago now. Geez, it’s been a little while. That’s what got me into traveling. Then you mentioned your paintings, so I know you’ve had some San Francisco culture influencing you, which is awesome.

So this is going to be the sad part—this is the end of the podcast. I know it’s like the breakup part, and we’re like, “We’re breaking up. What are we gonna do after this?” I don’t know; I guess we’ll just figure out custody for the kids. So let’s say you were going to dinner with three people, and I’m feeling you’re going to have an eclectic group at your table, and somehow I was invited to this dinner. If you could choose three people, dead or alive, anyone you want to have dinner with, who would they be? It can be one night, two hours, whatever—who would you choose?

Yeah, I wouldn’t have guessed those exact ones, but I knew yours would have been like, “Oh, yeah, this person from here, this person from this era.” I want to know—I could have guessed that you’d be a very interesting individual. Amy, this was an awesome interview. I think after taking the time today, I’ll have to reach out to you when I come out to San Francisco. Maybe we’ll meet up and have coffee or something like that. Definitely. Amy, thank you so much for the interview. If anybody needs to get in contact with you, what’s a good way to reach you?

Well, cool. Amy, have an awesome rest of your day. Thank you so much for the interview.