Blogging, PR, and Marketing - Discussing Them with Spin Sucks’ CEO, Gini Dietrich


Gini Dietrich

Gini Dietrich is the Founder and CEO of Arment Dietrich, a marketing communications firm based in Chicago. She is passionate about writing and is a lead blogger at her PR and marketing blog, Spin Sucks. It is recognized as one of the top blogs by AdAge Power and Social Media Examiner. Her books, “Marketing in the Round” and “Spin Sucks,” talk about content marketing from an insider’s perspective. She is also the co-host of Inside PR, a weekly podcast about communications and social media.
WEBSITE: Spin Sucks


  • The benefits of content marketing
  • How content marketing has evolved
  • Important tools for content marketing
  • How the Arment Dietrich team works on their content strategy


  • 00:47 : Gini’s Connection with Chicago and Salt Lake City
  • 08:20 : Going to a Jesuit School and Growing Up as a Mormon
  • 12:30 : How Did Gini Get Into the Digital Space?
  • 13:42 : Starting Spin Sucks
  • 17:39 : Inception of Arment Dietrich
  • 19:23 : Working with the “Pretty Girl Syndrome”
  • 21:43 : Benefits of Content Marketing
  • 24:54 : When Influencers are Sued
  • 26:43 : Gini’s Favorite Tools
  • 29:33 : Good Examples of Content Marketing
  • 32:02 : Gini’s Vision and Inspiration
  • 33:10 : Breaking Down the Silos in Marketing
  • 37:09 : Gini’s Podcast
  • 38:50 : How Gini Spends Her Weekends
  • 41:10 :  Sharing Travel Stories
  • 42:08 : If Someone Gave Gini $50,000

Content marketing is not just a buzzword. It’s a strategy that has changed the way businesses promote themselves. From big brands to mom-and-pop stores, everyone can leverage content marketing to grow their businesses. If you still haven’t invested in this strategy, you’re lagging behind. It’s high time you dive in.

To convince you to get started with content marketing, I’m going to list down the benefits you can reap from it.

1) More Online Visibility

With every piece of content that you publish, you can reach out to more people. Whether it’s a blog post on your site or an infographic on your Facebook Page, everything translates into increased online visibility.

This, in turn, can also improve your brand awareness and higher your chances of getting indexed on Google.

2) Better Brand Reputation

Whenever users come across your brand online, they are creating an impression about it. If you create content that is entertaining, engaging, informative, and insightful, you have a good chance to impress them.

What’s more? If your audience sees your content being published on other renowned platforms, they are likely to perceive you as more credible. With sustained efforts at content marketing, you can even establish yourself as an expert or a thought leader in your industry.

3) Compounding Returns

Content marketing doesn’t always need a big budget. It’s a cost-effective strategy which has the potential to give you compounding returns. Initially, you may need to spend some time in conducting research and creating great content.

For the first few months, you may not get a lot of traffic or engagement on your articles. But stay firm in the game. It’s a long-term strategy. It can take a few years to establish your authority and get a good ROI on your content marketing initiatives.

On Shane Barker’s Marketing Madness Podcast, Gini Dietrich touches upon these points. Having worked in this industry for more than a decade, she has some noteworthy tips to share. Tune in to the podcast episode for more insights.

Full Transcript

Shane Barker: Welcome to the podcast. I am Shane Barker, your host and Shane Barker's Marketing Madness podcast. Today we're going to talk about the benefits of content marketing with Gini Dietrich. Jenny is the founder and CEO of Arment Dietrich, a Chicago based integrated marketing communications firm. She's also the lead blogger for the PR and marketing blog, Spin Sucks, which has been ranked as a top blog by Forbes, Cision and other reputable sources. She's passionate about writing as authored two book, Marketing Around and Spin Sucks. I'm excited to have her on the podcast. Shane Barker: So why don't we start this off. I want to kind of talk to you a little bit about where you started. Like I know you guys are currently in Chicago, right? You live in Chicago. Gini Dietrich: Yes Shane Barker: I’m the weather right now. Where did you grow up? Did you actually grow up in Chicago? Gini Dietrich: I did not. I grew up in Salt Lake City. Shane Barker: Salt Lake City, Utah? So here's the thing a lot of people don't know this and it's not because I don't tell them or maybe it is because I don't tell them because they don’t know It. Do you have, how long were you in Salt Lake for? Gini Dietrich: 15 years. Shane Barker: 15 years. Now do you know where Richfield Utah's at? Gini Dietrich: Yeah Shane Barker: I was born there. Gini Dietrich: No kidding. Shane Barker: At the front door. Gini Dietrich: Look at that. Shane Barker: I know.  People like, wait a second, I thought Shane was from California and I am. My mom's going to love it when I tell all of our personal stories to podcast so everybody can know the stories. But my mom and dad, my biological dad met in Sacramento, California. They decided to go out to Utah. My mom was there for about two weeks. I was born and we went back in my mom's Volkswagen bug back to California after about two weeks. Gini Dietrich: So you were there for two weeks. Good. Shane Barker: Two weeks plus. Yeah. I mean it was about 15 days was the max and now you know nothing. I just love Utah. We just Richfield, my mom was like a California hippie and she went to Richfield, Utah, which is a little different. And they were like why are you not wearing a bra? Speaker: Not California Hippie. You can’t smoke marijuana here. Shane Barker: Yeah, like what do you mean? Like I just had a baby. Like, I can totally smoke marijuana now. So many unanswered questions. Gini Dietrich: [Cross talk] Gini Dietrich: Yeah that’s not good, you probably should put that out. And she's like, well I'm going to go with my Volkswagen bug. I'll be right back. And then we went back to California. So that's how the story ends. But I do like Utah. Utah is…. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, it's great. Shane Barker: Yeah. So why did you guys move to Chicago? Gini Dietrich: I went to school in Omaha at Creighton and then I got a job at Fleishman Hilliard in Kansas City and then I moved here in 2001. Shane Barker: Got you. So you've been, so you're pretty much in Chicago, going to stay in Chicago. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. We love it here. It's funny because we talk about, we both own businesses then we talk about, we could be anywhere really, but we love it here. So. Shane Barker: Isn't that the, that’s what I love about, I mean like kind of what we do is that it's all online based. Just like you can just go anywhere. Like I've been, I've been talking about this. I met a guy yesterday at this infamous garage show that I've already complained about and been crying on my microphone about, but there was a guy there that had an ambulance. What it is converted it into like, you know, whatever. He was traveling over the US and finally ended up going, it's going to go to SAC state or CSUS here in Sacramento. But what's crazy about it is I've been looking at these vans like obsessively for months. Like my wife is like, just go buy a van please quit looking at these damn vans. Like I'll say, what do you think about this or what do you think about this? And she's like, I don't care, just get in a van and go do whatever you need to do. Go travel the United States. And she would obviously come out and visit me. But I've literally been looking at these vans at the time and I was like looking at this guy's ambulance, I'm in the back of an ambulance yesterday. Right? This is part of my psychotherapy that I have to go through. But like, and you're looking at the back of it was awesome. Like he just converted it. So anyways, I keep thinking about traveling like that and it's so nice because we have that flexibility of, my wife isn't, Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Shane Barker: She works seven days, well about seven days, seven days off. So she would come visit. So I don’t know, Gini Dietrich: She can come visit. Yeah, she can get on a plane and visit you. Shane Barker: That’s the plan. Gini Dietrich: I actually just read an article, maybe in the wall street journal yesterday that talked about how many people are either there because they can work remote or they run businesses like we do that are going to smaller cities like mid-tier cities, Boise, Austin, places like that because it's more affordable and they can be anywhere. Shane Barker: Yeah, I'll tell you, my dad did a big trip, this was in the 60s when skin hippies went like on his Volkswagen bus I think he had and he just went for like 50 States. He and his buddy went but yeah, it had a phenomenal time. So I've been raised with like traveling and stuff, but I think the back of my mind, I keep thinking about like that sounds like a lot of fun. Of course it's a little different now that I'm married and my son's in college and stuff, so I'm kind of an empty nester, but it's just kind of a weird deal. I don't know, I'm up in the air about I'm, no, I'm going to do it. I just don't know when I'm going to actually pull the trigger on it. So you never know. Gini Dietrich: So the ambulance was all outfitted, like does he have Wi-Fi and everything on there? Shane Barker: I think he does, yes. So it was interesting, he actually had some really good points. He was like, well it's an ambulance. So like all of the wiring and stuff is top notch because obviously. Gini Dietrich: Oh sure. Shane Barker: -- if you're buying another one that's used I'm assuming they did the wiring themselves, they'd have to know what they were doing from the wiring perspective. Right. If you're an engineer, an electrician on it or not. So I don’t know, he had some good points. It was a little smaller and he was a younger guy. So comfort I don't think was his number one thing. And I'm like looking at this thing, I'm like, if I laid on that bed, I'm pretty sure that my back would break and then I would bleed internally and I wouldn't even need to wake up. Right. I'm just looking at some stuff but he was just this young getting hit. Like, Oh, I do chameleon, I do this and I fight bears and like, oh, that's awesome. You know, he's just this young spirit. And of course I look at it now, my wife's like, I'm not going to get one of those unless we have a toilet. Maybe. Well, you can go the bathroom anywhere. She said, what about the middle of the night? And when you get older, like you have to worry about these kinds of things when you're young, you're like, pee the bed. Like who cares? Gini Dietrich: I am not using a leaf to wipe. I'm sorry. Shane Barker: Yeah, exactly. But I'm like, it's nature. Like you understand your ancestors did that and she's like, no, that doesn't matter. They did a lot of weird things but Gini Dietrich: Because they had to like we don't have to. Shane Barker: Yeah. So we'll see. My wife's going to listen to this and be like, Oh yeah, keep making fun of me on your podcast. Let's see how that works out. I get into the toilet. [Cross talking] Yeah, this is good. I might be moving to Chicago now. So. Gini Dietrich: Yeah great— Shane Barker: it is my ambulance. You'll know when I'm coming down with a [ambulance sound] or like, Oh, Shane's here. Coming to visit. So how big is your family and in Utah do you have a pretty big family? Gini Dietrich: I am the oldest of six. Shane Barker: Oldest of six. Nice, nice little community out there, how about family union's big? Gini Dietrich: You know, it's pretty rare that we all get together, but I think there are, I have to count, I can't even keep track. There are a lot of nieces and nephews. Shane Barker: Got you. And then do you give any interesting, any fun facts about growing up that maybe nobody knows about you? I don’t know, like I used to always tell people, I mean will that I've done a lot of traffic and I went to school in Costa Rica. That was kind of an interesting actually Gini Dietrich: That is interesting. Shane Barker: When people were like, because of the white skin and the red beard, they're like, there's no way this guy speaks Spanish. And that's true now. But 2 years ago I was fluent. So I mean, who knew? Gini Dietrich: I feel like you could still be fluent. Isn't that like riding a bike? You kind of just [very low]. Shane Barker: And what I realized that if you go to Mexico or cursory Guinea place to Spanish speaking countries is after your second beer you are fooling again. A lot of people don't know that that -- alcohol induced. And so if your system then your Spanish becomes a lot better. Now they might not understand you, but you will definitely be more Spanish. Gini Dietrich: I think that that's the case with any language really. I mean if you're in France and you have a couple glasses of wine, suddenly you speak French. Shane Barker: We, yeah, I mean I'm with you. I think people don't realize how easy language is after you've had a few cocktails. Gini Dietrich: Exactly. Shane Barker: So why don't we have that out of the way.  So any interesting facts. Anything fun that you're like Gini Dietrich: Oh, -- Shane Barker: And if there's not that's fine too we can, Gini Dietrich: No, I mean I had a pretty boring childhood, I grew up Mormon I think people know that. I mean you can assume that like, I don't know nothing’s happening really. Shane Barker: Nothing too crazy. Gini Dietrich: No Shane Barker: Okay. There we go and so you are a Mormon. Mormon out of Utah? Gini Dietrich: I was raised Mormon. Shane Barker: Oh, got you. So no, we don't need to get into any of the religious stuff. Okay, cool. Gini Dietrich: Wine, I like wine. Shane Barker: Oh, I hear you, I know that'd be so hard to give. When I went back to visit my dad in Utah, he was like, hey, you know the whole beer thing got messed up you can't drink beer on or there's no places open on Sundays to get beer. And I was like, that's legal. I was like, oh, that sounds kind of crazy. We've got to go figure that out. We've got to go grab a six pack or something. He's like, yeah, I know. We'll figure it out. Don't worry the family will be here. Gini Dietrich: He’ll take care of you. Don’t worry. Shane Barker: Absolutely. Absolutely. And where did you go to college? I think you already told us you went, it was Ohio? Gini Dietrich: Creighton in Omaha. Shane Barker: Omaha Nebraska? Gini Dietrich: Yeah Shane Barker: How was that? Gini Dietrich: Actually it was great. I went on a full ride academic scholarship, so I didn't have to pay for anything, which was amazing. Shane Barker: I know [very low] Gini Dietrich: But it's a jesuit school and so a girl growing up Mormon and then having to take a different theology course every semester was amazing. And I think that really, not to get into the religion piece of it, but it really helped me understand that there are other. Shane Barker: Open your mind. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it helps a lot with that. And I loved it. I learned something about everything, which I love. Shane Barker: I think that's important, you know? I mean that's the things you grow up under any religion. Right? I think it depends on how, not crazy but how that religion is, right? So you think, okay, this is how it is and then I think it's always nice to have other options and see that because I think even as the issue I think is a lot of kids, if they don't have an opportunity to look at the different options, right? Gini Dietrich: Right Shane Barker:  Because Hey, this is the way that it is and I get that and I'm not a heavily, heavily religious person I'm more of like a spiritual type person but I do believe, I think that's important. I think it's awesome that you were Mormon at a certain point and then you said, Hey, I'm going to go to a Jesuit school. Right. And then kind of see there's two sides, right? There's a lot of different things out there. One of the reasons why travel because I'm very open to anything and everything. Like I'll go to any church, you know, at least once to kind of give it a try and try to see if it resonates with me. And so I think it's awesome my son actually went to a Jesuit high school. Gini Dietrich: Oh really. Shane Barker: Like I said, I didn't take him there because of necessarily the Jesuit side of things, but because I thought the opportunities and the networking and stuff like that, the religious side of things, if he wanted to take that on and that resonated with him, then awesome. But for me it wasn't, you know, he's like, Hey, I'm not really going to probably go get a Jesuit tattoo. Yeah, that's cool too. Right. I mean it's like, hey, you know, so be it. I mean, it is what it is, you know? So maybe one day when we wouldn't [cross talking]. Yeah. So cool. And then so you graduated with, was it an English degree? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I have an English degree with a creative writing bent and also a minor in statistics. So Shane Barker: Hello, look at your full brain some people just use parts of it you're like, I'm going to go all in. I can't even spell statistics like a budget I'm like, Gini Dietrich: It's harder to say than to spell statistic. Shane Barker: I remember so I did take statistics there was an, I can't even say it, but there was a guy I remember looking it up because I was like, I've got to find a teacher that like is easy me because I just knew that we were going to be a challenge I'll just be extremely honest. And so there was a group of us, there was a city and it's called Auburn and it's about 45 minutes from here. But we were like, hey, it's about 45 minutes but we can all carpool up there and we went up there and it was kind of, what was his name? I can't remember his name. Phenomenal teacher, and it wasn't that easy necessarily, but just the way that he taught things was like, he made it like almost kind of simple. Gini Dietrich: Yeah Shane Barker: Right. But just would blow us away with just things he would like, Hey, you know, people would ask me to look at this and look at this and I would go do this. And I'd charge him for 15 hours but really it's just this equation you plug in to make four numbers. And I'm like, that would blow me away, you know? I mean, of course he's been doing it for I think like 800 years or something. Like he went to school, like you know, Jesus and I'm like, he was an old guy that just was brilliant and I remember thinking really amazing. But I did get a good grade in the class but I think it was also because he was a great instructor. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, yeah. Shane Barker: And he pulled me in and Scott's is something that's like, God I think if you really get stats, it's like it's kind of a trip and then just what you can do with it is just kind of incredible with the numbers and stuff like that. Gini Dietrich: So fun fact, I never include this in my journey of coming east, but I went to high school for a year and a half in Auburn. Shane Barker: What! No you didn’t. Yes. You're like, Oh yeah, Auburn. And I was like, whoa, she knows about him. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. And nobody ever knows where it is I was only there for a year and a half. So I never included in the journey but yeah, I was there for a year and a half. Shane Barker: So you were in close to the Sacramento area then? Gini Dietrich: Yeah Shane Barker: That is because you said, oh yeah, Auburn. And I was like, wow, she really resonated with the Auburn thing. I was like, that's weird because nobody knows about Auburn. [Cross talking] Gini Dietrich: Nobody knew Shane Barker: -- Auburn Yeah. Okay. There we go. So was that from Utah over or is it when you were growing up? Gini Dietrich: No. Yeah, we went to Utah over and then I went to Auburn Shane Barker: Barker: Let me shout out to Auburn this genie's in the house from Auburn I mean, who knew? That's too funny. Okay, so after your journeys and your travels and everything, how did you get in the digital space? Obviously had a background in English. I mean like the digital, like almost PR space, right? So how did that transition happen? Gini Dietrich: Well, the truth of the matter is that I was going to go to law school. I really wanted to be a sports agent. Still could do that I guess. But my mom got really sick and I kind of had to get a job and she's fine now and it flipped but a friend of mine said, Hey, I just interviewed for this account coordinator job at this agency. Would that be of interest to you? And I was like, yes. So I got this account coordinator job at this agency and I just ended up loving it and I worked my way up then ended up starting my own and here we are. Shane Barker: Crazy. It's crazy. The journeys cause it's like, I mean this because it wasn't even on, this wasn't even a possibility when we were going to start going to school. Gini Dietrich: Like nobody should have public relations. Shane Barker: Yeah public relations they want to be, you know, digital work and you're like digital like what you digital like a track. Like I'm so confused and how this is going to work. [Cross talking] Yeah, exactly. A, I don't even know how we would talk through facts. This is crazy how this is going to work in the future and then you end up starting what spin sucks. Right. And you started what 2012? Gini Dietrich: No 2006 I was just thinking Wednesday is our 13 year anniversary Shane Barker: Wow, look at that, so what made you start a blog? I mean in 2006 when like people were still using like notebooks and stuff. Like, I mean what made you think, you know what, I'm going to start this thing called the blog because I don't even think they were called blogs. It was just like, Gini Dietrich: No, WordPress didn't even I mean WordPress may have existed, but it wasn't something that everybody used yet. I think we are on Type pad I think. But it really was one of those things that we saw coming and we were like, is this something that we should be paying attention to? Is it something that we can sell the clients? Can we put it in our toolbox? So we started it just to figure out how it worked really. Shane Barker: And then there you guys go. I mean that's what's been 13 years. That's crazy, I don't know why. That's nuts. I mean see you guys there couldn't have been, I mean there wasn't a lot of people talking about PR or anything in the digital space at that time at all Gini Dietrich: At all. Yeah. I mean we were definitely in the right place at the right time for sure. Yeah. I think there is one other person in our space at that point maybe too. But yeah, no, hardly anybody. Shane Barker: Okay. Can you imagine starting something? You're like, there's only one or two people. I mean now it's like PR, it's like know it's kind of everybody's involved. Gini Dietrich: Pretty much everybody’s involved. Shane Barker: But then how has it evolved? I mean, because you've probably seen in the beginning like anything else. I know I always joke around about my website because I've had it since women. I've been blogging for about eight years. In my first two years, my articles are absolutely. Gini Dietrich: Awful? Shane Barker: Terrible awful would have been somewhat okay for me. Like I read them, I'm like, oh my God. Like I've showed them. I was joking around. But this I teach at UCLA, I showed to my students as an example of like, hey, you have to get started somewhere. And it's a travesty. Like they read that and they go, really like you're teaching us and I'm like, somehow I snuck in guys. Gini Dietrich: Oh I don’t know how this happened Shane Barker: I will be your final year. Like I'm the one who does the grades that don't be an ass because I'm here and I'm listening and I'm judging so just so you know. But yeah, I mean it's like, I mean obviously I'm sure the blog has done a thousand different things. But I mean, how has it changed? It was in the beginning it was just writing some articles and now your guys writing with more intent. Gini Dietrich: Oh it's completely evolved. In the beginning it was every one of us took turns and I think at the time there were, I don't know, 25 or 26 of us. And so, you know, you only heard from me once every five weeks. And you also heard from the intern and there was, there was no editor, there were no images, there was no SEO, there were no links. It was awful. And the reason I know this is because I actually just wrote the blog post for our anniversary later this week and I always republish the first one. There's an asterisk in there that talks about some pest control guy. I don't know why it's not relevant to what we're talking about at all. So random. Yeah it’s terrible. Shane Barker: But like anything else you guys, I mean this is the common theme in every podcast that I've done. It's like what you started, right? And it's like now, today it's like you guys have obviously phenomenal traction. You guys have been named, I saw, I don't know, five different huge companies that were called you guys, originators and this and when the original blogs, I mean that's, that's phenomenal to have, right. To be able to do that. But yeah, I mean it's crazy how it changes over time, but like anything else, you know, we always joke like Gini Dietrich: I have a friend who said to me just the other day, wow, your writing has gotten a lot better in the last five years. And I was like, thanks. I mean five years ago I don't think it was that bad. Shane Barker: I've gotten the same compliments and I'm like, you know why? It's because I'm not writing anymore. How about that for, yeah, it's because I got kicked off my own team. So how about that? Because they no longer let you write in Korean, I guess on your blog. So it happens, it happens. Gini Dietrich: You’re right it does happen Shane Barker: And then so how did you guys spin us? You've been doing your actual companies, what does, it is a Arment ? Gini Dietrich: Arment yes. Shane Barker: Arment Dietrich and you guys have been around for what? 14 years plus. Right. And then so that was actual agency and then your blog or website was pretty much spin sucks. Or did you guys have two different websites? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, we had two, two different websites. So we had the agency and then we had the blog. And it really was just the blog in the beginning and certainly it was, it did things that I never in my wildest dreams imagined and it afforded me to write two books and all sorts of speaking engagements. I've been all over the world speaking and it's allowed us to really fuel my passion, which is writing, which is great, but it's also now become its own business with its own P and L and its own business strategy and its own team and all that kind of stuff. So with that comes its challenges as well, but it definitely just started as, Hey, this is interesting. People are starting to talk about this. Is this something we should offer to clients? Shane Barker: That's awesome. Yeah. I mean it's a, and that's awesome when that happens or when it finally starts to be like, wow, I'm glad I did that because now I'm speaking and doing this and doing that. People see you and I, I've talked about this in the past. It's like the way I got my job at UCLA was not because I applied for a position, it's because they read my content, they've seen me everywhere and said Hey, he's talking about what we're looking at in regards to an instructor. So because of that content, people go, Oh, does content work? And there's a long term strategy and what do you do and how do you do it? I mean it does. Like for me it's all my stuff and I'm sure it probably saves you a lot of it's inbound, right? Because of the content. You can't go wrong with that once you create it, but it's a long-term play. And we're going to talk about that a little bit today. Just about like, you know, different things that you've done in regards to your content strategy for probably for both companies. Because you have two companies, right? It's kind of separate ones, but I'm sure there's some overlap there. There'll be, let's talk about that. So what do you think regards to like, you know we talked about content marketing strategies for both of the companies. What have you guys done to implement that for? I mean, what was kind of like maybe the beginning strategy and then later on? I mean, I know it's evolved a lot changed, but like what are you guys doing today in regards to the two different companies and what did the content strategy have for both? Gini Dietrich: You know, for spin sucks. It's pretty, what's the word I want? It's pretty strategic. That's not the word I'm looking for, but that'll work. It's pretty strategic. We're really smart about, you know, getting people into the funnel and pushing them through in the right ways. What's interesting about it is, and I call it the pretty girl syndrome, it's the, Oh, she's the most popular girl at school. So clearly she's already been asked to the prom, so I'm not going to ask her. And so it's been really interesting in the last couple of years to watch that phenomenon happen because people just assume that either they're too small for us to work with them or they don't have the right budget or we're too busy. And so from a business development standpoint on the agency side, they're like, oh no, no, no, no, no, I'm sure you're too busy. But I have grandiose plans of building this gigantic profitable business and nobody's hiring us because they're making an assumption that may or may not be true. And so it's from that perspective we've had to kind of curb some of the content so that that awareness and that perception changes a little bit that we aren't almost too big for our britches. Shane Barker: So people can still ask you to the dance. Is that what? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I want to go to the prom. Shane Barker: Who doesn't want to go to prom? Maybe with multiple dates at this point, but let's not judge. Gini Dietrich: I did grow up in Utah. Shane Barker: Hello, the jokes are coming. I wasn't going to say that. I mean that's, I'm open to polygamy. I love my wife. I had two wives I would pray for them because there's only one me, which I don't know if that's good. Probably not a good, Gini Dietrich: I feel like multiple women, it would be really hard on a man. I feel like that's, Shane Barker: What! I think it's just bending to be confused and all around. Like, you know, it's like I'm going to be with Helen from Tuesday to Wednesday and Thursday and then I'm going to meet with you on Friday and Saturday. Then Sunday I'm going to be looking for a new wife. It's like, it sounds good to me. I'm like, wait, hold on. Wait, what? What's going on? Like my wife should be like, yeah, I got an idea. Why don't you just be with Helen full time? How about that? [Cross talking] I was just kidding. Don't hold me. I'm sorry. I don't want to cry again. Yeah, that's, anyways, we don't need to go heavy into polygamy right now. But maybe offline we'll talk more about like, Gini Dietrich: Sure absolutely Shane Barker: So what are some of the things in regards to like businesses, I mean I think about, you know, most businesses that want to jump into content marketing and obviously it's a longer term play. Like what would be like, what are some of the major benefits that you guys have seen as a company? And maybe same thing with your clients. Like, what are some of the big wins that you see with, with content marketing? Gini Dietrich: There are a couple of things. And you know, because I'm a communicator by trade, I see this a lot. But when you want to have, when you want to work with influencers or journalists or other bloggers, it's almost impossible to do that if you don't have some sort of online presence from a content and social perspective. And so, you know, that's one of the things that we look at, especially when we're working, we're starting to do a new work with a client is you know, what is your online presence and does it need to be beefed up because your competitors are here, here, here and here and you are not. And that gives them more credibility whether or not it's deserved or, but that's just the perception. So we, you know, you really have to look at it from that perspective because most people need to see that social proof they need to see. And that goes across the board. It goes from, you know, the wall street journal journalist to your influencers in your space to the trade publications. They need to see that you have some credibility and having an online presence does that, Shane Barker: Yeah, some traction, right? I mean that's what's going to make you kind of like, it doesn't mean that you're the most popular kid in school, but at least you're on the radar, right? So we have that with some clients where it's like they're like, hey, we want to go talk with influencers, do this. And I'm like, have you, you don't have a social media presence like they're going it. The first thing that they're going to do is like you're pitching a product. We want to sell an Instagram. You don't have an Instagram, great nail script. Go file there and look at it and go, why would I represent you guys? You have to have something. So what kind of foundation do you have and what do we need to do to either grow that foundation to be able to get it to a point? Now we can start pitching people or Hey, you have a great foundation. We've got to tighten a few things up and then we can start the get people to start writing about you in chat and about you. Gini Dietrich: Unless you're the fire festival and you have turned in $50,000 for one Instagram post, in which case most influencers will overlook it. Shane Barker: Yeah, I mean that's, we all have cash like that that we want to spend on it. Gini Dietrich: I do yes. Shane Barker: So, you know, it's funny about that whole thing and I, because I get interviewed with other podcasts, I keep telling people with the influencer marketing thing because that's where a lot of people see me. That's like the class I teach at UCLA. And so it's, you know, it's their space, but it's funny. So everybody's like, Oh the fyre festival, we'll kind of go into this and I go, you think is, or the fry says, we have to realize that it works. Like it's not the influent influencers move the needle. Now, the problem was logistics and that you're on an Island and there was, you know, there was guys that were running it, they didn't know what they were doing, but really influencer marketing work like it made people go buy $10,000 tickets like works. Right. So just there was logistics of it that I think that we needed a probably to reevaluate, but at the end of the day it did work. And of course it's always like, Oh you gotta watch out for influencers because you never know what they might promote. And it's like, oh shoot, we've got to be careful. They might have fake followers. We don't even know. It's a travesty. Like it's like all these kids going after other kids with fake followers. Like what are we going to do? And I'm like, now we're all dancing to Elvis Presley. Like God damn, you know this. Like it's like the problem of the 60s. Gini Dietrich: That’s the best quote. Shane Barker: Like this is like big balls everywhere and they're having, you know, they're having kids and now they're buying tickets. We don't know what's going on. Anyway. It's like Shane and garage sales. It's really not that big of a deal. Like really just, just brief. We're going to figure it out. Like I'm sure we'll be able to pull through in the end. I'm pretty sure Gini Dietrich: That's an aside. Did you see that the influencers are being sued? Shane Barker: Oh really? Oh really loud. Like the trustees going after him. Because they said you guys are, because you guys did the marketing. That's interesting to me because it's like, well I mean that's like if I advertise in a local newspaper and we went down, does that mean you're going to suit the local newspaper? Gini Dietrich: Right, right. I don't necessarily know that they'll get anything but. Shane Barker: Let me tell you this, I actually been through bankruptcy so unfortunately I know a lot about this. The reason why the trustee is going after the influencers just because they feel like there's some money there. Trustees only go where there's money. Right. So if it was me, the influencer, Shane, the influencer out of Sacramento and they'd be like, he has like $20 to his name. Like why would we go after Shane? No, actually I had a grad show, I have $45 I probably shouldn't have disclosed that because now they're going to come after me. But the point being is like if there's, they think there's money there, right? Then they feel like they're, there's some responsibility, but really I don't think there's any fiduciary responsibility of an influencer that marks them got paid. Right. Because it's like the idea is, I just talked about it. As long as you're not deceiving people, you're saying this is what the event, I mean, because the problem is, is that they tell you what the event's going to be and how do you promote an event without, if they even already happened. You can go, yeah, we should have when it was great, but when you, it hasn't happened. Like how do you know they're going to do what they're supposed to do on their side, right? Gini Dietrich: Yes. I agree with you. Shane Barker: It's a hard one. But I do get the, you know, you feel like people might've been taken advantage of. Maybe they didn't disclose that they were being paid. That's another, right. That's like FTC. That's another, [Cross talking] I mean, a trustee going after that and maybe that's a scare. People who knows. I mean, I will see if they get any money from that, but I highly doubt that would be feasible. But the trustee once again is going to go after every penny and kind of see how it all plays out. They're going to come after you so. Gini Dietrich: Oh, fascinating. Shane Barker: I know. Look, influencers, get an attorney. Just kidding. I'm not kidding. So what are software’s or apps or that you can't live without? Like what are your three favorite? I mean, if there's three or maybe there's 13, I don't know, but is there like three that you're like, God, if this these shut down tomorrow, I would be, Gini Dietrich: Co-Schedule is one. Can't live without it. Pinterest. Shane Barker: Oh here we go. Gini Dietrich: I mean, I live without it, but it would be really bad. What's a third one? You know, I just started using about a week ago and it gives you the analytics of where you're spending your time. So it can show you how much time you're spending on meetings, who they're with, who's taking up all of your time. People-wise. It shows you how much time you spend in meetings in a certain week or month or you know, how many meetings you've had. Most attended meetings, attended meeting lengths. So I don't necessarily know that I can live with, could probably live without this right now. But the data that I'm collecting about myself and where I need to learn to say no is pretty compelling. Shane Barker: Yeah. Because then you can find where the emotional vampires are out of the people that just want to have meetings to have meetings. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. Shane Barker: Yeah. Is that you said? Gini Dietrich: Yeah Shane Barker: I'll have to check that out. Yeah, I'm infamous meeting after meeting and not say no to meetings and then all of a sudden I've got like 19 meetings and I'm like, what did I get out of 14 of those meetings other than people, you know, asking for this or asking for that or pitching me something and I'm like, I have to be like a value my time more. You know what I mean? There's points where you kind of look at that and I think it ebbs and flows, right? There's sometimes I'm like, super honor my time. There's other times I'm like, Oh, this is, you know, usually I get sucked into somebody that, you know, it's like a nonprofit or something. Shane Barker: I'm like, Oh, at least I can help them send them the right direction. Or, I probably shouldn't say this out loud, but if anybody's like doing a go fund me for the kid has cancer or something, like I'm losing my marbles over, that kind of stuff. I'm like, let me see what I can help. You're like, why are you crying? And I'm like, I don't know. I'm just raised by hippies. I like, what do you want from me? Let's just hug it out and figure it out. I don't know. But yeah, Gini Dietrich: -- ambulance to read. Shane Barker: Yeah, exactly. You can just drive around and collect the cash in my ambulance, my uncomfortable bed in the back. Gini Dietrich: Without a toilet. Shane Barker: Yeah, exactly. That's what I definitely you definitely fly around in an ambulance picking up money for kids. That's sounds a little, that might be borderline suspect. Gini Dietrich: It might be. Shane Barker: I'd actually call the cops on myself if I was to do that. Gini Dietrich: We might want to position that differently. Gini Dietrich: Yeah because that's going to be super hairy. Like that's going to be like weird guy, red beard going around picking up money for kids like doesn't your nightmare. Gini Dietrich: Let's think about how to position that differently. Shane Barker: We should probably not have Shane in the ambulance. Probably is probably a good start. Are we separate like two bad kids in elementary school but so what we're going to, here we go marketing. Yes I did. That's the reason I changed the name because you just, you never know. But in regards to content marketing, what are like other like three companies that you think are like crushing it when it comes to like their initiatives or campaigns they put out is going to be, you look at like you wake up on a Monday morning, you look at their stuff and you're like, ah, look at you Nestle. I see what you're doing. You know, is there any, or even it doesn't have to be big companies and I always like to talk about some smaller companies or medium sized as well. Obviously the big companies have big budgets and big this and big that. Is there anybody that you can think of that like you're, you've been impressed with their content? Gini Dietrich: Well, I personally love what Wendy's is doing and I think that that it's less strategic and more about the people behind it, which kind of a bummer is because if anybody leaves then that changes. But I think what they're doing is phenomenal buffer. I love what they do, everything they do. I love and Jay Baer. As much as I love him. Every time I see him I'm like how, how, how are you, there's just more all the time. There's something more and it's always good. And it's like how are you doing this? How, Shane Barker: Yeah. So I'm going to answer somebody. So Wendy's, you're talking about the weather always talking trash. I mean it is hilarious. Like that definitely is one individual, right? I don't think that the Sacramento Kings have also started to do that too. Like you'll see like on the, yeah, just like talking trash about the other team and then they'll look up these funny and it's hilarious like you want and then I know we're actually talking trash to some of the people in the thing, which is interesting because you know some people are like, Oh don't, you know, just make sure everything's on the up and up and be smile and everything. But Wendy's like when they were going after like, I mean they went after everybody. McDonald's. But it was hilarious because you know you're going to these eyeballs and you're like, dude, that's pretty funny actually. And I think, I think it probably is one person, right? Which they're probably paying them way too much for that position at this point. So like please don't leave. Like you are like the face of our social media. A little scary, but that's exciting. So yeah, the Wendy's thing and she said buffer. So I, I've always like, so I think they do a phenomenal job and shout out to them for like not increasing their prices, I think. What are they still like seven bucks or something like, I don't know how much stay alive but awesome. And then Jay Baer, I just saw Jay, I was at Conex in Toronto maybe then he was out there. And so I was chatting with him a little bit. He was putting a little workshop. But yeah, he does seem to like consistently, I mean, I'm sure she's got a solid team, right? So I mean, not that he's not brilliant, but it's like, yeah, its like, why don't you give somebody else a chance, dude, [Cross talking] and quit hogging all the great ideas. Yeah. Why didn't, she's like the guy that comes to garage show and wants, grabs everything. It's a great price and you're like, here's my list of all the things that I'm going to do before you like, oh cool. Thanks. I just, thanks for giving it to me before you did it. That's awesome. Awesome. So good old Jay. Shout out to Jane and then, so I'm trying to think of like what are the things that inspire you, like when it comes to, cause obviously you're a writer, right and that's your background is in writing and yet having the PR space and got your blog like is what inspires you? Like what are the things that get you out of bed? Like what are the things that get you going in the morning? Gini Dietrich: From a business perspective, I have a pretty big vision for what we want to do with the PR industry on the spin suck side. And we are really, we have some great clients on the spin suck side and we're really helping people grow their businesses and spending time with them and watching them put some of our recommendations into play and having great success is so rewarding. It's, and it's so fun because you're working with your peers and you're holding them accountable to the things they say that they're going to do. And it's just amazing to watch them grow and move and move out of their comfort zones. I had a conversation with a client earlier today and she's like, I'm so uncomfortable. This is, I'm trusting your process, but this is so uncomfortable. And I said, good, you're going to have success. And it's just fun to watch that. It's really fun. Shane Barker: So is that like, and do you have, you know, because obviously we were going to touch on this, the marketing in the round, right? That was a book that you, that you've written, that you call author. Is that what you talk about? Some of the successes that you've seen with some of your clients, cause I know that we've had, I've had a few people actually recommend your book to me and talking about it being more of like a senior level lead, senior level marketing type, you know like a breed that probably somebody should take a look at. Do you have like tell me a little bit about the book and does it, do you have some of the testimonials from clients or things you've done with clients or what is the premise of the book? Gini Dietrich: The whole idea behind marketing in the round was to break down the silos. And it's really interesting because we see this come in cycles where when the economies really good, everybody works together and everybody tells each other what's happening inside the organization. Marketing works really well with communications, works really well with HR and legal, you know, they all work together really well. And then when we start to see the, the economy tight and we start to see that people start to hold onto the information and their fiefdoms because they're afraid that if they share information they'll lose their job because they're not the only ones who can do it. Yeah. So the whole genesis of it is to break those silos down, especially in down economies because you're all successful together better than on your own. But it's, it's been funny. I think that book was published in 2012 so in the last seven years, just seeing organizations put the philosophy and theories into play and seeing how it works both in great economies and down economies has been really interesting to watch. Shane Barker: And you've actually, you have a new, I mean a New bower newer book from that one and it's actually called spin sucks. It is. What is the premise behind that book? What was the reasoning for that? Gini Dietrich: Well, it was the book I always wanted to write. So the first book I coauthored and it really gave me the understanding of how the publishing cycle worked and you know, built a relationship with the publisher and all that and held me accountable to deadlines. But spin sucks really talks and it desperately needs to be updated. But it really talks about the things that we think we have to do to get, build awareness and get attention and things like using sex to sell or black hat SEO or things like that that happen. But that's not how you get ahead. Yeah, you might get some fast wins but it's not a long-term play. And that's what, that's really, it's a, it's an ethical look at how not just communications but marketing is done and what works and what doesn't. Shane Barker: So you're telling me sex doesn't sell anymore because I've, I've been, Gini Dietrich: It does if you're selling sex. Shane Barker: Oh so all the books home. That's interesting cause all my books they have one of them. I won't go having all the books that I buy, but I'm going to be buying your book here soon, especially if it talks about sexist sales. Because I need to, I need to quit buying those books I guess is what I'm saying. This is part of the counseling stuff that we talked about earlier. I already feel better. And then you're also a cohost over the inside PR and what do you guys use? So that's obviously the weekly podcasts and communication and things you've got going on there. So how long has that been around? You guys been there for a while, huh? Gini Dietrich: Oh I've lost count. It's, it's been awhile. Yeah. Six seven. I don’t know. A long time. Shane Barker: So you, so this is the thing, I feel like people need to like follow you more because you seem to do stuff before other people do stuff. And I know you think Jay's ahead and whatever, but I do, I mean cause you're like, oh he started a website and you know 1923 Gini Dietrich: I’m not that old. Shane Barker: And you're like, we did a packet. I mean what your, your yeah, your grandmother did. And then you took it over obviously, but great, great grandmother will give you, get you a little younger. But so what like with the inside PR like you guys did that six years ago I started interviewing people for my podcast. We joke around about this, but this is the truth. It was either August or October of last year. We just launched in July. So you do the math there. The little bit of motivation. Like we talk about books and you know, you said no, you want to keep you on like you know on a certain timeline or whatever on deadlines. Shane Barker: I've been trying to write my book with crayon for, I don't know how long and they've just given up. They're like, you know what? I don't even know why we even engaged this guy ever. We thought that he knew what he was doing and the book thing is just been a whole nother conversation. But it is, it is. It's a beast. It really is a beast. And I, you know, anyways, we'll, I'll cry my microphone later about that too. But you guys start the podcast six years ago. I mean there wasn't a lot of podcasts there. I mean we've had major traction in the last few years. I think people you know, said, hey, this is awesome. You can really listen to anything. You can listen to people talk about their expertise of 10 years and learn it in a pocket and theory and then a podcast or at least become, get more knowledge from that. And why did you guys start the podcast? Gini Dietrich: You know, it's funny, the podcast actually existed before the three of us. I want to say they started it maybe 15 years ago, and the original cohosts of it were kind of tired of it. And so they handed the reins over to two Canadians, Joe Thornily and Martin Waxman. And then they wanted not just a female voice but an American. So they invited me. And so I think it's been at least that long, six or seven years. But I will tell you that I was at content marketing world two years ago and I met the chief marketing officer from Lipson and he said to me, you know, I know that you're a cohost of a podcast, but less than 1% of podcast hosts are women. So you should really think about that. So that was two years ago. We launched, spin sucks the podcast a year ago, a year ago. So it took me that long Shane Barker: Crazy like, because you have other stuff going on, right? I mean I was watching TV or like what am I supposed to do to like, I don't know. I can't remember. But you know. Yeah, exactly. Well that's awesome. Give them one less than 1% are female. Have female hosts or mean female hosts. That's crazy. I would have never, so you're breaking through once again. That's awesome. As soon as he said that, I'm like, okay, time to increase those numbers. Just you're right. Moving on up like Georgia. We will. Cool. So how do you, and we've already kind of talked about content a little bit about your personal stuff, but how do you spend your weekends? Like if there was like what, what hobbies do you enjoy? I mean obviously you were, grew up in Utah, which is outdoors-y and super awesome. And now you're in Chicago. Super warm right now, right? You guys are like in 67 which is why we're shooting for Chicago. It's amazing. What do you do weekends, what do you do on your weekends? Gini Dietrich: I'm a cyclist. I race, so I mean obviously I'm a six year old too, so that takes a lot of my time. But yeah, I raced my bicycle. Shane Barker: That's awesome. And so do you travel around and do that or is it mainly just kind of somewhat local? Gini Dietrich: You know, before she arrived I did travel quite a bit. I mostly just the to the local stuff now. Shane Barker: Nice. Yeah. My wife's brother Doug, he, uh, Don, you must know him. I'm sure. Don from Reno. Of course. I know. Probably know him. No, he was writing for Audi for a little bit and he was, they were doing some, no kidding. Yeah, he got, he was, well he's shout out to Joe, but I don't know if Dawn's that good. I think he's just a good mouthpiece now actually is pretty these a big boy, which is kind of crazy. It's likely, it's a smaller guys and he's, you know, you'll see him have them on the podium and the two guys next to him look like his two kids or something, you know. And he's like this big giant, he's like six two or six, three or something. He's just used to be a rugby player and he's very like he, he goes all in with anything he does in life. And the cycling was one of those things that he really, really kind of took a liking to. And he'd wake up at whatever time you wake up to train at 4:30 or whatever it was for three hours. And yeah, he was a beast. It's a beast. But he loved it. Man. He does not ride anymore. We just don't really do it that much. You mean just skiing and some stuff like that because he's getting a little older. Right. So I mean went from rugby real physical to, you know, cycling, cycling, you know, as you know, it's like it's, you can, I mean I've seen he's fallen many a times. You know, you get in those little, those little things people think, Oh you just cycle. It's like, no, like people buying to get ahead of you. Right. And mistakes, elbows out and you know, he would explain to us, oh, you got to catch somebody else's wind and then this point you do this and your team flows your ed and does this. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. We just, as you know, retarded people, we just stare at it and go, Oh, that's got us kind of crazy. But there's like so much strategy that goes into that. Right. It's like it's kind of, it kind of blew my mind. But in dangerous. Yeah, Gini Dietrich: It is dangerous. Yeah. And that's part of the reason I curved it back too, because he didn't want to leave my small child without a mother. Shane Barker: Well, and that's very, very big of you because there's some people that are like, you know, I have no problem with leaving my child without a mother. You know? That's nice that you were, you thought, you know what, how can I make it so that I can take care of my children? I mean, I'd like to be around in small goals. That's good. So when do you do a lot of traveling? Gini Dietrich: I used to, but last year I said I can't do this anymore cause you know she started kindergarten and it just, it's too hard. My husband travels. It was just too much. So Shane Barker: I think I've done four speaking engagements this year is all okay. That's not too bad. And then what were some of your favorite travel destinations? I mean obviously you've been a lot of different places. Is there any you're like, Oh my God, I went to here and I loved it. Gini Dietrich: Amsterdam. Shane Barker: Oh man. Answered him is [inaudible] park the little wooden bikes that you would go around everywhere. And it's a great, great city. I love it. Mentioned my first tattoo and I only have one tattoo so that tells me my first and last was actually an answer to it was a guy that used to do tattoos for a lot of the famous artists and stuff. Oh, what was his name? God I can't remember, was a law. I mean this was many moons ago. Anyways. Yeah, my first person lasts at two and answered him, shout out to answer to him. Shane Barker: That was a good time. Fun. Steady for sure. So, okay, so this is my last question for you because we're, we're getting down to the end of this thing and this is the hard part because this has to end. I know that we're having a good time and everything. If I was to give you a credit card, let's say for $50,000 and this is pretty money, this is, I mean it's a credit card so it does sound like you'd have to pay it back. So let me give you cash. I'll give you 50 grand gas cause that's what podcast host I am. What would you do with that 50,000 like if you're like, you know what? I know exactly what I do. Is that what you buy a new bike? Would you take your husband and your daughter on vacation? Would you go to vacation by yourself? Shane Barker: Would you buy me an ambulance? There's a lot of options here. The pressure, I think I would buy you an ambulance, but I'd put a toilet in there for your wife and now you're a giver. That's, I think that's what I would do for sure. You should probably drive it cause any, I mean I feel like I must some good. Yeah. Yes. I just got myself a job then. Awesome. You're hired. You're now maybe the ambulance but now make you the driver. You're like, this is really like my birthday. I feel like it's like, it's like, yeah, it's like, like when I bought my wife a vacuum on her birthday, she was like, this is awesome. So is this for me to use or for you to use? And I'm like, I can use, we can, we should let me get you another press. Cause I didn't went out too far. Shane Barker: I mean it's like you buy me the ambulance, I'll pay for it Shana. They're like, and you get a drive. Well the gift just keeps on giving. Thank you so much for giving me that opportunity. Are you going to pay me or is that going to be just volunteer? Shane, since you seem to see me and I assume that I'll be paid to drive. So now I would hope so. I mean that's not cheap. I mean not real smart but I'm not cheap. Well cool. This has been, once again, I'm in it. This sucks. We had to wait months for this, this moment, and it literally took months and here we are here we are like two angels with wings. So if anybody needs to get in contact with you, how can they get in contact with you? What's a good webinar? You've got like 19 businesses going, but what's, what are we going to spin sucks. And you're in your is the easiest. That's it. Spin just go contact us and that will get to you. Awesome. Well, Gina, you've been a, you've been an absolute angel. It was. This was all I thought it was going to be and we can, I mean, once we get in that ambulance, we can just, we'll do a live simulcast every week. Awesome. Tell your husband, I'll let my wife knows that we're going to bring up the family and get him in the ambulance and start traveling. Perfect. All right, awesome. Have a great rest of your day. Thanks, you too. We'll talk soon.


Shane Barker is a digital marketing consultant who specializes in influencer marketing, product launches, sales funnels, targeted traffic, and website conversions. He has consulted with Fortune 500 companies, influencers with digital products, and a number of A-List celebrities.


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