CRO: Why it is Important and What to Expect in 2020 with Justin Christianson


Justin Christianson

Justin Christianson is the Co-founder and President of Conversion Fanatics, a full service conversion rate optimization company. His company helps e-commerce and SaaS businesses optimize their websites with CRO and PPC strategies. Justin is a self-proclaimed numbers junky and an expert at digital marketing. He is also the author of the book, “Conversion Fanatic: How to double your customers, sales and profits with A/B testing.”
WEBSITE: Conversion Fanatics


  • What CRO Is
  • Why it is Important
  • How CRO is Not Just About A/B Testing
  • Best Tools For CRO
  • CRO Trends That Are Likely to Dominate 2020


  • VWO
  • Hotjar
  • Google Analytics


  • 01:04 : Podcasts For Educating People
  • 02:42 : Family Background & Early Journey
  • 05:33 : Building Confidence with Rodeo Bull Riding
  • 08:57 : Exploring Electrical Technology and Music
  • 12:31 : From Network Marketing to Conversion Fanatics
  • 16:39 : What to Look For In Potential Clients —The 5 Second Rule
  • 22:21 : CRO is More Than Just A/B Testing
  • 25:49 : What Does Conversion Fanatics Do?
  • 34:42 : Favorite CRO Tools
  • 35:30 : CRO Trends For 2020
  • 41:31 : Justin on Writing a Book
  • 43:25 : Advice to 18-Year-Old Justin
  • 56:44 : If Justin Won the Lottery

Do you want to convert your website visitors into paying customers?

Do you want to improve your conversion rate?

Of course, you do!

Any marketer worth their salt would say yes to these questions.

The problem is that getting conversions is easier said than done. In fact,  53% of mobile phone users abandon a website if it takes longer than three seconds to load.

If you want to get more conversions, you need to engage your website visitors. You need to ensure that they have a good user experience.

That’s where conversion rate optimization (CRO) comes into play.

What Is Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO)?

Conversion rate optimization involves strategizing to increase the total number of site visitors who take action. Whether your goal is to get more subscriptions or to drive more sales, you need to focus on CRO. The key is to get more value out of your site traffic, not necessarily more visitors.

It involves understanding how your website visitors interact with your site and what is stopping them from taking action. CRO strategies leverage user data and analyze it to come up with innovative solutions to drive user action.

Why is CRO Important?

CRO can help you scale up your business and grow it to its true potential. If you’re not sure if you should invest in CRO, consider the benefits you can reap from it.

CRO can help:

  • You understand your target audience in a better way
  • Make your website more mobile-friendly and responsive
  • Expect to boost your sales
  • Reduce your total customer acquisition cost
  • Improve your customer experience
  • Accelerate your SEO efforts

CRO in 2020: Which Trends Should You Be Prepared For?

The thing about CRO is that it is very dynamic. The strategy that might have worked like a charm last year may not give you any results this year.

As digital marketing evolves, the way users interact with websites also changes continuously. If you want to develop a killer CRO strategy, you need to stay informed about the latest changes in the field.

So, which CRO trends are likely to steal the limelight in 2020? Justin Christianson, a CRO expert shares his insights on this subject in my podcast.

Here are the key points from our conversation:

1. Personalization Will Become More Popular

Personalization is key to improving your customer relationships. It is an integral part of any CRO. After all, CRO is all about making your website likable for your audience.

By leveraging personalization, you can show your audience what they might be interested in.

So, how can you use personalization for your website?

To begin with, you need to understand that all of your website visitors are looking for different things. So, a one-size-fits-all approach is pointless.

Instead, you should segment your audience into different categories. You can silo them based on location, activity level, funnel stage, interests, shopping stage, or even search queries.

Take a leaf from Amazon’s strategy. Not only do they welcome each user with their name, but they also give each user personalized recommendations.

Amazon Conversion Rate Optimization

Image via Amazon

2. Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning Will Advance

AI and Machine Learning have the potential to change the face of all fields. CRO is no exception.

They are both forward-looking concepts that make it easier for brands to predict what the target audience wants.

With the power of AI and Machine Learning, brands can get insights into user behavior and  communicate with customers more effectively. It equips them with the ability to be present at the right place at the right time.

If you know what your customers are likely to search for, you can target your ads smartly. In addition to this, you can give them tailored experiences to shorten your overall sales cycle.

Even though these technologies haven’t yet reached their full potential, there are major breakthroughs happening.

CRO tools like MobileMonkey, UberFlip, and Node leverage these technologies. They can be game-changers in the space.

MobileMonkey Conversion Rate Optimization

Image via MobileMonkey

3. Longer Attribution Windows

In CRO terms, an attribution window is the total time period taken by a user to convert from the time they first visited a website.

Suppose you check out a new website today. You visit it again after you discover that it has an amazing discount going on. Still, you are not sure if you want to make a purchase.

On the third day, you finally buy a product from the website. In this case, your attribution window would be three days.

According to Justin, people are taking their time to research a brand, check out its reputation, and see if it’s worth their time. He says that typically users have interacted with a website on at least one online channel for more than six to seven times before they make a purchase.

Considering the changing trends, marketers need to tweak their strategy to accommodate longer attribution windows. It’s no longer about “Buy Now” only.

Instead, it’s about building brand awareness, reputation, and then selling your products. Marketers need to take into consideration the whole customer journey to form deeper relationships.


CRO is integral to the success of any online business. With optimization, you can drive sales and conversions. At the same time, you can boost your revenue.

Do you want to grow your business?

Then you can’t afford to neglect your CRO.

To stay ahead of your competitors, you need to stay updated. In 2020, you need to focus on personalization. To provide your users with a tailored experience, you can leverage tools that are aided by AI and Machine Learning.

While developing your CRO strategy, keep in mind that the attribution windows are getting longer. So, you need to come up with a long-term strategy to capture the attention of your audience.

For more insights on CRO, please check out the complete podcast episode.

Do you have any questions about CRO?

Please share them in the comments section. I’ll be happy to help you!

Do you have any insights or tips about conversion rate optimization to add? Please share your views in the comments section.

Full Transcript

Shane: Welcome to the podcast, I am Shane Barker, your host of Shane Barker's marketing madness podcast. Today I have with me Justin Christianson, the co-founder and president of Conversion Fanatics. His company helps other businesses with conversion rate optimization, and traffic generation. Listen to him as he discusses the importance of conversion rate optimization for businesses. In the episode he also talks about AB testing and what you can expect from CRO in 2020. Well, cool let's jump into the show, as we have already sent over some of the questions and stuff like I said it's pretty basic interviews. Justin: I didn't even look at them, but I usually don't Shane: No worries and like I said, I'm not here to try to make you say anything funny. It's all the stuff that you guys currently do. I don't think it'd be any issue, so I'm excited. Justin: I prefer going in blind anyway so Shane: Nice, you are going Okay, there we go, I like that Justin: I've done probably 300 podcast interviews Shane: Really, so you're at the 300 mark, I think I've done probably 40 or 50. And I was pretty proud of that. So you're jumping 300 mark huh Justin: There was a time when I was doing like 20 a month. Shane: Oh let me just talk about that, was that mainly for just thought leadership like conversion, like client stuff? Or what was it benefit for you and what did you see out of that? Justin: I saw nothing out of it. Shane: There we go. Justin: I was using a booking company at the time, and it was when I first released my book. And I just went all in. It's like the more content the better, I just wanted to educate people. And I wouldn't say nothing, we can't quantify it or put direct correlation to all of that effort. But I've definitely had people it's kind of that multiple exposure angle. I've had people come and say, hey I've seen you guys everywhere, I've heard you guys before. And I've had people come to me and say, hey, I've heard you on a podcast, but just a lot of work. Shane: Yeah, and then you just find it hard to find for you guys obviously being optimization is like you want to find out like, did it work right? I've spent whatever 10 grand and like, what did I get out of that other than some people saying they heard me I get that and I think overall, you get the exposure side of things. But it's like, how does that feel for you? You wanted the numbers, right? I mean, that's really what it comes down to. Like, that's great to say we have this happened. You're like, Oh, that's awesome. But like, how many people bought my book? Or how many more clients that we get because of that? So and that's always a little more difficult to do I would say with podcasts. Justin: It is Shane: Yeah, for sure Justin: Well, yeah, cool, I'm an open book so ask me whatever Shane: Sweet, this will be a good interview, I'm excited about this. So the goal today here we're going to talk about how to improve your conversion optimization skills with obviously Conversion Fanatic’s Press Justin. So here we are. So I wanted to start off and I do this and all the podcast is just kind of like where did you grow up? Give us a little background on where you grew up and your family size all the fun stuff. Justin: Oh, well, I'm the oldest of two kids and I have a little sister, I grew up in actually rural North Dakota, of all places. Very small farming ranching community of about 400 people just grew up heavy with the hard work ethic, actually value of $1 and are not very early on, wouldn't say that I had everything growing up but we had enough. And that I went on later to actually go to become an electrician out of high school and quickly figured out I didn't want to do manual labor. Like my ADF hour, climbing a ladder one week didn't want to do that. So I had a side business doing some marketing and some stuff and just being an affiliate and just being around on the internet and was starting to actually pay pretty decent for me at least at the time back then. And it kind of moved up the ranks through affiliate marketing and sold a company or grow company partners that I was an affiliate for, grew it about 400, almost 500% in one year and then sold it back to my business partners and kind of went on this whole big and long optimization journey and founded what's now Conversion Fanatics. Shane: That's awesome now I have a question so the affiliate side of things you know, on my own side I mean, we do about 160, 180 units a month right around there and traffic wise. So it's a good amount we’ve built up in the last year and a half, we usually did it for everybody else and didn't really do it for ourselves, we're not bad at conversion stuff. We're not like your company by any means. With the affiliate side of things, we've actually wanted to jump into more affiliate stuff like you have any recommendations for anybody that maybe wants to jump into affiliate things. I just know that I have a lot of articles that index well, get 1000 anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 people a month. I mean, we really haven't optimized it for affiliate based stuff because we index extremely well in Google for hundreds of different keywords. So I'm just curious, do you have any recommendations or is it like, because I guess really what I’m asking you is I'm looking for somebody down the road there that can help us with the affiliate stuff because I really want to, I know there's some stuff there, I’m not saying there's hundreds of thousands of dollars, but there could be some good residual stuff that's happening and I get pitched 10 times a week and they usually join our affiliate program because people will see the traffic and obviously want to jump on that. Justin: What I would do is probably get part of a network or something or become a publisher, and that way you can get the best rates, they handle all of it. They'll handle the placement. They'll handle all of that. And you basically get paid on a cost per acquisition basis. There's a ton of them out there, generally just on the type of content. I've got some buddies too that do a lot of stuff in the affiliate side, and they have a publishing network. So I can make some introductions online there if you… Shane: Yeah, that'd be awesome and I‘d appreciate that, I just know that we're leaving money on the table and there can be some really cool stuff, right? And so I just look at these pages and I go, man, we really got to get into this. But you know how it is, when you got 10,000 other things working on the course and working on a book and all the other fun stuff and just you know, where you spend your time, but I do feel like there's some good stuff there, so yes we need kind of introduction would be awesome there. So let's go back to your childhood, so like, tell us a little bit like any interesting facts growing up, was there anything kind of crazy like I mean, other than you want to become electrician, and then after about 80 hours, you realize God, there's got to be a better way. Justin: I'm actually former rodeo bull rider Shane: I think I remember hearing that, I read that, okay, that's ride a bull so, I didn't get it so you were a little bit of a country guy and you were bull riding, like how was that? Justin: Just kind of what I did, I don't know my dad was big into the rodeo world growing up. So I kind of just grew up around horses and stuff and you know just started out young like sheep riding, mutton busting riding, cows, was riding steers and then started competitively I think when I was like 13 just doing that and rode for about eight nine years, something like, that got hurt really bad back when I was like 20 or 21 I got put in the hospital and kind of put an end to that, but yeah, I'd been on about 500 or so of them. One of the biggest things I guess from there just really built my confidence and really helped me kind of just push through kind of the adversity of different struggles and different things but yeah, really, really boosted my confidence from somebody that was kind of reserved and shy growing up, just kind of stayed on my own lane really kind of brought me out of my shell at a young age when you're climbing on animals that don't want you climbing on them, it kind of will help you do that. Shane: Yeah, I've got a question for you, did you ever see the movie, god it was seven seconds? It was a rodeo Justin: Eight seconds. Shane: Yeah, eight seconds oh, with… Justin: Matthew Perry Shane: Yeah, did that… now you gotta tell me from a rodeo prospect, man and I never saw the movie but did that movie like, when it came did it make you cringe, did you go, you know, that's not what it's like, oh, do you think he did a good job, was it pretty good Justin: No I probably seen that, I mean it came out when I was in high school in the midst of my rodeo career so you know, I'd probably seen that movie couple hundred times at least Shane: Nice, so it was a good movie like it kind of fit the lifestyle. I mean, if I was watching then I would this is kind of what it would be like, right? Justin: Yeah, I mean, some of the graphical elements, re-enactments of the actual bull rides and stuff were pretty cheesy, those in the know would know it but those that wouldn't, you'd never know. Shane: That's awesome, okay, I was just kind of curious about that I don't know why but obviously that wasn't anything that I thought about asking but the bull riding thing is that's awesome. And that's kind of cool 500, so how'd you get hurt like well I mean I obviously know how you got hurt, you know the bull decided… Justin: On one it's actually June 22 2001. Shane: Wow. Justin: I remember the day, that was just a bull riding thing competition and bull stepped on me wrongly I landed underneath him and he stepped on me. He didn't even have any horns, it wasn’t a mean bull he wasn't anything like that normal stereotypes are, and stepped on me and big laceration down my leg and down my hip and went to hospital had surgery and spent about seven days in the hospital and went home and recovered for seven months. Shane: Oh God, that's crazy. Justin: But yeah, it was… just kind of a freak accident you know, it is what it is. And it was the worst one that I'd ever had, I had broken fingers and broken toes and had stitches and other things, broken ribs, but other than that, it was pretty straight. Shane: I love that, you're like other than that it's pretty straightforward. I mean, other than like cracking my face and breaking both my legs and then having my arm cut off I mean other than that, it’s another Saturday, you know what I mean, that's what we do Justin: You’re safer on their back than you are in front of them that’s for sure. Shane: I would imagine that, I would imagine that I would much rather be on the back than sharing one of the eyes and going hey, man, like let's just try to work this out somehow, like let's not get violent. So you're currently living in Austin, so how long have you been in Austin for? Justin: I moved here in 2007, so what's that, 12? Is this year 12? So yeah, we just celebrated 12 years, so it'll almost be 13. Actually, May will be 13. Shane: That's awesome, and did you end up going to college or not? Justin: Yeah, I actually went to become an electrician, went on to high school, went to two years, got an associate degree in Electrical technology, worked on a coal mine for a while, did some electrical stuff and didn't like it. But I've always been pretty handy. So I went there and I actually went back to a school for a brief period of time when I was a touring musician. I've done a whole lot of stuff in my career. Shane: I love that Justin: As a touring musician and went back to school but then dropped out about a semester and a half away from graduating because I was making more money as an electrician just couldn't see myself doing what it is I was going to school for Shane: You said traveling musician so what did you play Justin: In that band that played bass and sang. So yeah, we were one of the top club bands kind of in the Midwest played three to five nights a week, various bars and fairs and casinos and all sorts of stuff. Shane: The whole thing out there touring huh, that's funny, man, I love it man, every once in a while you get a guest. It's just like, like how old are you if I get an answer. Justin: I just turned 39 Shane: Okay, so you're sneaking up in your front, I'm 44 so it's funny when I talk to people like they will say oh, they always talk about what I’ve done or things you know, I forget stuff. I'm like, ah, I did this, this this and this! Oh, yeah and I forgot all that and I teach UCLA. They're like, how did you forget that you taught at UCLA? And I'm like, well just because in the midst of everything, there's so much stuff and I try to put it like Shane one point now, it’s like, oh this was my hospitality years. This was 16 or whatever 25 and then I try to break it up for people because I mean, it's just you get into those older ages. I mean, you're sneaking up on your 40s you're not old by any means but it's just crazy like, you're like oh yeah now… Then and oh hey, I used to ride bulls, and hey, I built a helicopter when I was seven years old. You like I kind of forgot about some of this stuff. You know, think you look at all the different things. It's kind of cool when you talk about me like I kind of forgot about that. That was fun. Justin: Yeah. And I mean, I look back. It was 20 years ago, I graduated high school and you're like, what the heck, where did that come from Shane: Ain’t that crazy? I always joke around about this so I've 25 years of experience in the digital space. And the reason why I bring that up is, and I've talked about this before in the podcast where my wife one time was walking by and I was telling somebody like, oh, I've been in doing digital work for 15 years. And so I was all done. And I walked out, my wife said, why are you lying to people? And I said what? I’m not lying to people, I’m not lying to anybody. She was, you’ve been doing this for like…, how old are you? I'm like, 44, she goes when did you start? I was like, I think I was like, 17 or 18. She goes well you do the math, and I'm like, I'm not good at math, I'm better at marketing. And so I did the numbers. I was like, Oh, geez, okay, the 25 years, I guess I'm like, I was doing this marketing thing right before the internet was around. Not really, but you know, I mean, it feels like that it's like a crazy it's like how time just flies, man. Justin: Yeah, I did the same thing I think about it I'm like, I started, like, 2001, 2002, so I’m what, 19 years, 17 years, I don't even know. And you know, I know I went full time in 2005 right before I got married. But yeah, like even looking at that, that's 14 years. Shane: That's a crazy man like I don't know…, and I remember thinking this is nothing new with marketing. I remember thinking as a youngster, like, people that were 40 I was like God, they are almost dead. Like, I remember thinking that like when people said 40 I was like, ooh, they're not gonna make it. We gotta go talk to Uncle Larry, because he's not gonna be around too much longer and now I'm like, 44. And I'm like, I feel pretty healthy. And you know, get a few things back, I'd heard from some stuff from CrossFit and legs numb from running, but other than that, not quite, I'm not breaking. I didn't have a bull attack or anything like that or I didn't ride 500 bulls by any means but I don't know, man it's just kind of interesting like this when you get to that certain age. So how did you jump into the marketing space? I mean, obviously, you're like an electrical engineer, you're doing this kind of stuff, making some kind of money and side money on affiliate stuff. And then you jumped in the marketing world, like, how was that transition? Justin: Yeah, actually, I started out in network marketing and figured out that I did not like bumping into people and asking them if they wanted to make some extra money. So I turned to the Internet, and I found lead gen and some tricks and tactics and back then obviously, we're talking 2003, 2004 so I mean, that's, Wild West. Shane: Yeah, there's nobody talking about that. Like there's nobody right now that blog about how to be successful like at the end of the day, it's like, you gotta go figure that out. Justin: Yeah we were just back when growth hacking wasn't a thing we were growth hacking. Just trying different things and seeing what stuck and like fortunate enough, we got to try a lot of stuff without having to like work the system and you know, the slaps and all of the things that Google and Facebook and obviously Facebook didn't exist. So we just figured out lead generation online and then I quickly kind of moved up the ranks to number one affiliate in the company, he wanted to expand. So I partnered with him we built the company, I was with him for about three years or so. And then I sold it back to them. It was just my attempt to leave. And because of some of the information that I published there, it was an information training company and published a bunch of case studies and split tests. And I've been split testing and doing optimizations and support of a software to do it, splitting AdWords ads and writing different articles and all of those kind of crude ways that you could do it back then. Yeah, published some information and people just asked me, what am I going to do next? And what can I do for the implementation? And I've always been just kind of the get stuff done guy, getting the implementation and setting up landing pages and doing all that. So I kind of went that route and set up some campaigns and stuff for some clients, partner with my long-time friend, who was one of the first people that I actually met here when I moved to Austin, he was doing something similar, but he's very systems and processes and people kind of oriented. So like, set up that kind of stuff and I'm very much the opposite. I'm very much just going to break stuff and see what happens from there. And he puts kind of a method to the madness. So yeah, we started that with kind of an idea. And we were going to teach conversion optimization first because we both came from a direct response kind of information background, and found out that nobody wanted to learn it. They wanted us to do it, so we started just to hire one other person who had an outsourced developer or source designer. We were doing all the implementation and expanding it and just getting growing and growing and growing. And here we are 20 plus people on payroll and big office with a name on the building Shane: All of us have I even like the name, I mean, Conversion Fanatics is like, I mean, it doesn't get, I know you guys probably got that domain name a long, long time ago, but that's awesome name. Justin: Six and half, seven years ago. Shane: Really, really Justin: What was funny is that my business partner, the name was weird and I was kind of operating under my other company. Nothing fancy no, like a brandable name. It was just the Justin show really. And Manish, my business partner sponsored an event and he needed a name to be more memorable. So he bought the domain name Conversion Fanatics and put up a basic one page website literally, if you go way back machine you'll see it. Him, his sister and I think one other key member that he had like one other outsourcer that he used to sponsor this event when we were bouncing around ideas. I have the domain name biz growers that I was kind of toying with and doing some SEO stuff with and he had Conversion Fanatics, and we just started out, like, okay, I guess that's going to be it. He already had the logo, he already had everything. So we didn't need to like go back and forth debate, do any of that stuff he already had it, we just expanded on what it is. Shane: I used to buy tons of domain names, and I'd love to tell you that I sold them for millions of dollars, which I never did. My wife is always like, why do you have like 500 domain names and I'm like, because I'm gonna develop them or sell them. And so anyways, each year, we'd have that conversation after I'm spending five grand a year on just domain names. So I always like to find, when you find a good domain name, or when I see somebody with a good domain name, I like to give them kudos because it's, I know, it's not easy to do. So it's, that's awesome, I like that name for sure. Justin: I think we got Lucky. Shane: Yeah, that's a good one, so what would you say, I mean, obviously, you guys work with a lot of high-end clients and stuff, like when it comes to boosting like a client's conversion rate. What are the things there, like there's certain things you guys look, other than obviously, traffic, I mean, there's some things we looked at in your site and some basics that people have to have is like and at least 30,000 in traffic a month, or have at least 300 leads. I mean, there is at least a million dollars in revenue, that kind of thing and obviously the no asshole policy, which I think is the most important part of the policies. But are there certain like, what do you guys look at in regards to conversions and stuff, other than that, what would be the first thing if you were to look at a potential client? What are the things you look at? Justin: Well, I have seen so many companies so I really know what to look for. And usually I give it the five seconds… so I'll load the website, and I'll look at it. And then I'll immediately ask myself the question, okay, what does this site do? And if I can't answer that question, we've got a serious problem. So I want to make it and when I look at it from a conversion perspective, I want to make it as seamless and streamlined as possible to get from point A to point B. So I always have the saying that we want to hold the visitor by the hand down the path of least resistance to the end goal, and I just go through that. So I'll take a quick browse. I'll land on their homepage. I'll see okay, here do I know exactly what they do, what their USP is, do I see a clear call to action? Do I see products available for sale on that homepage and we're talking ecommerce here. Typical like Shopify environments, do they have products available? Is that clear and concise? And then what does the rest of that journey look like to the checkout page and even beyond, depending on where we're at, and what type of platform they're on. So I just take a quick glance through it and see what friction points jump out to me, is it very clear to me where I'm supposed to go and how I'm supposed to get there taking kind of any bias aside, because I see so many companies, we've tested so many things that I just pay attention to the kind of that user journey. And then obviously, it has to be a product that is not, like we kind of steer clear the dropshippers. And I can tell very quickly, if it's a site that's just some AliExpress, kind of cheap China dropship stuff that you're going to get in won't get delivered to your door for 30 days. So we just pay attention to that kind of thing, it has to be a product that we believe in, that has a very big need in the market and has some growth potential there. But other than that, I don't really look I just we focus so much on the UI side of things and understanding that, I mean, I could talk ideas all day long and look at a website and come up with 200 things to test. But until we start gathering data, and actually start looking at it from a both qualitative and a quantitative perspective, is when we really start flushing out some of the details. Because what UI, I think, at the end of the day isn't going to really matter. It's what the visitors interact with the most, what they pay attention to, what they ignore, where they're falling off in that process, what holds the most weight in their eyes, that we can then build a list of tests and actually use that to inform future tests. Because it isn't as simple as just making a list of 200 ideas and then just going down the list, you're not learning anything and expanding on anything and evolving your marketing message with that. Shane: Well I think this was awesome what you touched on is that really, this is, I think, difficult for a lot of people to understand it. It's not what you like, right? It's what your customer likes. And what I mean by that is we get that from like an SEO perspective, what people will like, well, these are the keywords and I'm like, Yeah, but nobody's looking for that keyword, who cares, like, you think that you should have a green button here or whatever it is. I had to say green here because that's not the number one thing that people are looking for. But there's something that you think at the end of the day, it's who cares what you think it's what the customer thinks. And instead the customer, their journey and how they go down it and looking from their perspective, I think that's one of the most difficult parts, people don't think about it from you go and you look at a website and if there's 15 different things you have to do to get to the checkout page, that's a problem, right? That's obviously that you have the more things in the middle of this thing that's going to make it so that you can't convert, you're going to have a drop off at 5% here and 7% here and 8% here and then by the end, you have 1% of the people that can actually get to the end. Justin: Yeah, I mean, I had a website the other day that had 98% drop off by the time they got there, but the time that comes to the cart, by the time they got to the cart, we're not even talking checkout, 70% abandoned cart, so they put hundred thousand people on top of the funnel and you have like six come out the other side. Shane: It's crazy. Justin: So yeah, I mean, I see a lot of people do that will get companies that come to us and be like, yeah, we need some conversion help. It's like, yeah, we're ready to get started but first we're going to redesign our website like oh, Holy smokes, you guys need to back it up and then they come to us in three months and say, hey, why is my website not converting? It's like did you do base any other redesign on it, any data whatsoever? Or did your marketing guy say that it looked better? Chances are they just said it looks better, oh, we want to refresh our brand, like, well, nobody cares. Shane: Yeah and I think what's interesting is that it really, and most people don't base it off of the data, right? They just base it off of feelings, of emotions. And this is what I think, this is what I read or whatever. And it's like, at the end of the day, who cares about any of that, like, it really comes down to like, what's going to convert. And I think people, you know get the idea of AB testing, but I don't think they really understand what goes into that like, I mean, the amount of work that goes into that, like its extreme. Obviously, if you AB test enough, mute it down to do you have a working funnel like life is phenomenal. But to get to that point, it's a lot of time. Most people don't put up websites with intent, what I mean the same it's like they put websites up just because they need to put a website up. It's informational, but they don't really think about that journey, they don't think about keywords, they don't think about any of that stuff. I think that's where, like, once again, when you guys said, hey, we love our clients, but we're very picky. I think you guys had an awesome point where it gets to that where you just look at it, you go good this is going to be a good fit, you'll know instantly or not, this isn't going to be a good fit, because they have a good budget, but we're going to redo everything like, they're not going to think this thing is awesome and they're 80% there, and we're looking at it going, you guys are like 5% there in fact. Justin: Yeah. And what people think too is they don't look at conversion rate optimization. And AB testing is two separate things. They think that you can just go out and AB test and that is conversion optimization, that's not conversion optimization. Conversion optimization is the holistic picture of things, of how the visitors behave, what they're telling you, what they like, what they dislike. AB testing is only the vehicle that we use to prove or disprove the assumption that we have. So that's just the vehicle we use to measure whether we're right or not, and by how much and people just think. Oh, yeah, we just tested this orange button versus green button, we're going to be better off instead of saying, why are we testing that orange button? Well, it's because it's more accessible on the page. And it's going to draw more attention to the call to action, which in turn, increases the click through rate. And whatever that hypothesis is, and really answering the question, why we're doing something. And that's where people get hung up, they think they come to me and say, hey, Justin, you're the conversion expert. So you can fix me in 30 days, right? It's like, well, no, it's never ending its Shane: It’s not a magic Justin: Exponential growth it's scalability. I'm good, but I'm not that good. And it's the scalability and the exponential growth and in the long-term evolution, because those things are conversion optimization impacts that is more than just the conversion rate. Because that could stay exactly the same and we are testing and getting wins and evolving and everything, but at the end, by the time we come out you've got 60 70% more revenue that's coming through the door or more profitability. You know, we've had companies come to us and say, hey, you reduced our support tickets by 20% on the weekends, because you answered this one question. It’s like, great, so we saved him a bunch of money on support and made happy customers and then that impacts lifetime value, all of these things that we can't quantify from making it easier for people to identify and connect with us, and then in turn do more business with us. It isn't as black and white as that, oh, I changed the headline. So now I've got 15% more sales conversion. Shane: Yeah, I don't think they realize all the moving pieces and they all tie in together and soon as you tweak one thing, it can affect another thing, right? So it's that optimization that's ongoing. We deal a little bit with SEO as well because people go well, once I get number one for these keywords, and I should be good. And yes, you can’t stay in that number one spot, but it's like you want to continue to grow that, because there is going to be somebody else who is going to come and try to take that number one spot or number two, number three spot. Same with optimization, this thing is constantly evolving, right and… Justin: Yeah, buying habits change, decisions change, your audience change, mediums change Shane: Seasonal I mean, it can be right I mean there's… Justin: Google wakes up in a bad mood one day and you lose half your rankings. Facebook the same, you just never know. So you have to constantly be evolving and changing. And I learned that I mean, luckily fortunate enough to learn that way early on in my career that you have to constantly be striving for better. I mean, I've ran a whole lot of split tests for a whole lot of companies and made them a whole lot more money, but I've never yet reached 100% conversion rate. So for that, I keep trying, Shane: Yeah, there's always that next level Justin: I just keep striving to beat my high score from yesterday. And if we just keep doing that and what's best for our clients and help them better connect with their audience, the sky's the limit. Shane: Yeah, for sure Justin: We've had clients grow 300% in revenue in a year you know, we're not talking small numbers to start with you know, million plus and grow to 3 4 or 5 million in one year, all thanks to optimization and wasn't all us of course, but we've done some pretty big things all because we're able to you know, better connect with our clients audiences. Shane: Do you guys have any your own websites like your own like ecommerce type stuff and you guys mainly work with ecommerce businesses? Let me ask you that first. Justin: Ecommerce, SAS, some b2b type, lead gen stuff but I'd say it's probably 95% b2c ecommerce, Shopify, esque type, Magento, big commerce, that kind of stuff Shane: And then do you guys have your own site, your own ecommerce sites you guys currently run? Justin: Yeah, we have one that we actually just invested in, about two months ago. Shane: Nice. Well the reason I'm asking that is because for me, I always look at this, and we do this for clients, and we do SEO, and everything's great. And then all of a sudden, they're like, hey, we want to stop doing this, and I go, God, man! And so you know, it got to a point where I was like, why don't I just start building my own sites and I know what I can do from an SEO perspective, get those index forms, sell leads, or do whatever that is. But I think it comes down to like, you help all these other companies with conversion-based stuff, and you're great at doing that. And then there's a certain point, it's like maybe I need to do this for myself as well. Start building the ecommerce side. I know I've talked about doing more ecommerce stuff or doing something like that, but I think regardless what you guys do, I can get somebody number one for any keyword obviously depending on budget and how competitive is and all the fun stuff. But I think for you guys, that's kind of cool. You guys are now taking on kind of a side project and doing your own stuff. Justin: Well, we always kind of talked about that from the beginning. But we didn't obviously know that coming from a direct to consumer, high volume, instant gratification instant feedback type environment for so many years, then jumping into owning an agency now. Completely different area. Shane: Yeah, for sure Justin: You do something today and we might not see it for a year. Very much like SEO, you build and build and build and 6, 8, 9, 10 months later, you might see oh, hey, we're moving up in service now we are good. But it's the same thing now so we had started a couple companies we're not very good at starting from scratch. So obviously that's a lot of legwork that you have to go through to find a research product, source the product, build the assets, find the audience, do all of that start-up kind of stuff. We had gone down that road a couple times and a couple things derailed us we were going through a potential merger at the time that kind of derailed us so we had to put that project on the back burner, ended up just closing it, and then we decided just recently that let's just find good quality products with a good audience and a starting point that we can come in and just do what we do best. And then that's really grow it and about a month and a half ago, we started with the company, struck a deal and took over the marketing, took over some of the operations stuff, and are now growing it and we'll see what happens but so far, we're getting it back to where it used to be, at least so far. Shane: So how did that work? It's funny the reason I'm asking is so one of my big things probably 2021, I think is I really want to buy businesses right so like online business, so I look at it and go okay, they're doing this right but God they could double and triple it like why go in and offer my services instead I can just offer a partnership is that kind of what you guys did in this situation? Justin: Kind of, we had to come out with a little bit of cash.. Shane: Okay, yeah, yeah Justin: It wasn't much but in the grand scheme of things, but it was really our first one. But this actually fell in our lap. They called us in a panic and happened to be local, showed up did a one on one in our office one day and we just kind of locked ourselves in the conference room. And just the more I got looking at it, the more I… Shane: Saw the potential Justin: Saw the potential there so we partnered up and we're taking it over. It's got some ways to go to get it to where we need to be. But Black Friday, Cyber Monday should pull us out of the hole and really get us set up for a great next year. And we're just trying to get there everything traffic and everything sorted and organized. But we've been able to steadily increase it, as far as conversion I'm looking today, no conversions up 52% from over yesterday, revenues up 70% through the day, but this time of year is an absolute terrible gauge and irrational buying behavior. Shane: Yeah, all the crazies come out in a good way. Well, that's cool I mean, if you want to let some of the companies if so we will put it in the show notes as well, if you guys want to. Justin: I prefer not to say it right now. Shane: No worries, no worries at all Justin: We're just looking to do that and we are actually in talks with a couple other ones too. So we're just going to take our expertise and kind of our solutions and stuff and expand it that way. And my business partner just kind of took it over and we're going to eventually build an actual team for operations around all of that kind of a parent company. That's kind of the direction we're going because we're kind of tired of making our clients so much money. Shane: Dude I'm telling you that, so that's why I was asking you, that's why that question came up because for me, I look at it I go, man, we're doing all this good stuff. And it's like I'm just going to go, I'm literally like empire flippers isn't a private, listening podcasts, and I'm going to start looking at these businesses and great you want 40,000 for your business, I know that I can double and triple that I'll come in and buy your business. And I'm looking at that I'm even tempted to like put something on my website saying, hey, people I will buy your business. And of course I don't necessarily want 10,000 inquiries on anyone to buy my drop shipping business out of China. But I mean, like, the right type of thing could make sense. So I don't know, I'm intrigued by that, because, as you talked about a minute can take you six months, eight months a year to get a business up and going. And I'm like, I would much rather spend whatever that 30, 40, 50,000 just to buy the business and either move them out of the way or whatever, partner up or whatever that may be, and then let us do our work because I find that a lot of times with clients, God bless my clients, and they're all awesome for the most part. It's like you get to a point where you're trying to tell them what to do. And they're like we want to do it a little differently. And I was like, okay, you hired me though, right? Like, I want to make sure we're on the same page, if you know what to do, then why are you asking me and you wouldn't be asking me if you knew what to do, let's just be honest, I don't want to be rude. But there's this thing called I understand how to do this and so you don't want to believe in implementing what I'm saying then what's the point? Why are we going to move forward? So that's why I know you said you are kind of picky about your clients. We're the same way, I want people that get it like, hey, listen, I understand that I'm going to have to let someone give you the reins for the most part, right? You going to prove some stuff but at the end of the day, let us do our thing. And I can show you plenty of case studies and things that we've done with things would be successful, but you gotta let it rain a little bit. If you're just going to like micromanage it and make it through the approval process is terrible, then why move forward. Justin: Yeah. I mean, that's what we're doing with this company that we just partnered on, we just said, you're good at making a product and you're good at connecting with the audience, you've built that audience. He's asking us, what should I do for the video? I'm like, do you man, you built an audience of you know, 50,000 plus People on your own. If I step in, I'm going to screw it up. Yeah. So let us just do the marketing side. And we completely overhauled the website, completely did a bunch of other stuff, added a bunch of qualitative stuff and fixed the traffic side of things and kind of got everything sorted and organized. And went from spending like 100 bucks a day now, I think yesterday, we spent like 700 bucks on Facebook ads. So we're kind of inching it up there. Shane: Yeah, for sure Justin: Getting back to where it needs to be and… Shane: It's just divide and conquer, I mean, really, that's what you guys are good at. And you guys suck at marketing, guess what? Find a marketing company because it makes sense. I mean, people are worried about well, then it's a 50, 50. Then I'm like, what is 100% of what you're currently making, like really, let's do the math on that. Listen, I get you're giving up 50%, but where are you at currently? I mean, you're obviously not doing phenomenal we wouldn't be talking about this if you were making all kinds of money, you'd hire somebody to come and you’d be on the golf course. Like you're a little stressed out about something here like we do that well, you do this well, why not talk about some kind of a merger. So that's awesome I know we can't talk about it now. But maybe down the road you have to give us an update on that, I'd love that, anything I can do to help you out with that as well, I love seeing that kind of stuff go, so. Justin: Yeah, it's been fun. It's actually brought some life back into me loving this business again. You get into day to day grind of agency work and we work with 40 plus companies and when you're doing the same thing over and over and over again you kind of lose your creative edge and that brought it back for us. And it's been exciting, kind of frustrating and exciting at the same time. But we have been having fun with it. Shane: And that's the deal. think that is important because once you know, if you're doing this hit in the head every single day with stuff and it's just like, okay, you do need those kind of projects, that you I do that with my team every six months, actually, that's probably like, probably every month, I have a new idea, something we should do. And they're like, you know what, you're crazy, but I'm like, wow, I'm just kind of like with what we got going on here. I kind of want to change it up and I want to do this and I kind of, it has to be that way because if not, it's like just doing the same thing over and over. I could never work in a factory and do the same thing every single day. I would just shoot myself or like cut my fingers off or something like that, because just that would drive me nuts like I enjoy, it’s all about marketing. There's always something new there's always something interesting and kind of some cool stuff so that's why I enjoyed the space so much but when conversion based stuff I'm sure you know like I said. I mean when you start getting those results and you start seeing some cool stuff now when you start doing it for yourself you're like okay now this is awesome because you know once again… Justin: It's still cool doing it for clients and seeing what win, always seeing the outcomes, we will have big wins, come through 20 30 50% improvements, they come through once in a while and we're like wow, or really surprised at the outcome or we all bet on that one thing would win and the other one, we're still proven wrong even though we test a lot of stuff, that's what keeps it interesting. But it’s a fun business that’s ever changing, but at the same time, there's a lot of monotony to it that makes it kind of a revolving door a little bit. Shane: That makes sense. So what are some of your favorite optimization tools like conversion optimization tools, like I know you guys like VWO was one of them, I think you had talked about using but anyways, tell us about some of the tools that you guys like to use. Are there any tools that you like are your favorites, I guess? Justin: Yeah. Hot jar is the heat map, click map polling kind of recording tool that we use. That's kind of our favorite. And then we use, is our preference. If we had to pick a split testing tool, we're certified with a bunch of them. Yeah, but pound for pound dollar for dollar, that's kind of gonna give you your best bang for the buck. And that's it really, we just don't reinvent the wheel. We don't like to overcomplicate it with a bunch of different softwares, we use Google Analytics, we use secondary analytics sometimes, but usually just heat map solution, normal CRM, and a split testing tool and we get to work. Shane: Nice, nice, nice. And obviously you’ve been doing this for a long time you see any crazy changes in regards to like CRO, and like 2020. So anything maybe that's what I love about what you're talking about is that there's always new software, there's always new this and you guys are really just kind of keeping it down to the basics right? I mean, it comes down to the analytics, it comes down to conversions, AB testing tools, and then you see like, how this thing kind of comes out in the end. But is there anything you see differently maybe in 2020 that maybe could change things, like is it voice, is it…, anything interesting? Justin: I mean, yeah, voice is obviously prominent. Everybody's got a platform or whatever have you voice recognition type thing. I mean, that's probably more ballpark on the SEO side or the on the conversion kit. But I'm seeing a lot more personalization creep in really siloing visitors and bucketing visitors. So as they come back, they get a different experience. And just making it a very personalized experience calling you out by name, Amazon probably does it better than anybody right now or they're they show you what you frequently bought, or they have a very smart engine that shows you, recommend products and bundles and all of those things. So we're seeing a lot more personalization. There's a lot of talk still about AI, but I don't think it's there yet. Still ways to go to get ultimately where it needs to be. But you know, machine learning obviously can do a lot of the heavy lifting that it once couldn't but still there's that manual element to it. Because at the end of the day, we're dealing with people. You know that's everybody's buying target demographic. It's just people, the people at the end of the day, so we got to understand their behaviors, the best that we possibly can. And I think it takes that human element or that human touch to really monitor it. And really, I haven't seen a whole lot change in that regard in my entire career. And I don't foresee it changing in the very near future, but I'm guessing as machine learning gets smarter and allows us to do more things the software is going to get a lot more critical of the different elements that we're changing and making those manipulations based on those behaviors. But for now, I think it's just still a lot of more of the same and just leading to more of a personal touch and making it a very unique experience for visitors because we're seeing to that we're seeing longer buying cycles, and we're seeing longer attribution windows rather than it used to be, see the ad, click on ad, see product, buy the product now it's like, you learn more about it, I need to go to Instagram and do the reviews and customers come back. It's like this is their seventh interaction with your website in the last five days, or it's you know, and they're seeing that and we had a long discussion about this in a mastermind that I spoke at earlier this year too is the attribution window. People just immediately race to the discount and try to give you a 10% or 15% off because hey, you forgot something in your cart. It’s like no didn't, I just did not trust you yet or I have some additional questions that you didn't answer. So we're leaving that and opening it up to maybe instead of a two day or one day buying attribution window, we're opening it up to a 30 day and educating and building that trust and rapport with the audience long term rather than just going for the jugular right away and saying, hey, buy my stuff, buy my stuff, buy stuff. Shane: Yeah, now that makes sense. I mean, I think you know, there are things that people get nervous after hey, if you don't convert them today, then you're going to lose them. So we got to give them the discount to hurry up and bring them in. And I do think depending on your product or service like that, it can be a longer process, right? I mean, once again, especially these days with reviews and all that different things that tie into this, like people want to feel like they're educated on making that right decision. Justin: And once you go to the discount, it's hard to pull up from that nosedive Shane: Oh you can't I mean, that's the thing, is like what do you do? You just offer a deeper discount, you're not going to get paid full price. Like at that point, you've already blown it right? I'm not blowing it, but I mean, it's like at this point, you're like, okay, well shoot after one day. I mean, for me, I'm a little bit evil. Like when it comes, like, if you give me a 10% discount after one day, I'm just gonna keep waiting, because I know you're gonna hit me with a 15 and maybe a 20. Like, right or, I mean, what I'm really bad at and this is terrible, I'm gonna admit this, but when I'm going to buy something, and if you have a little thing, it's this coupon code. That means there's a coupon code on the internet, Oh, God, I'll spend an hour to go save seven bucks, just to like and which is most people don't do that. And you shouldn't do that. If you're listening to this podcast and you're young. Don't do that. That's rude. That's not the way to do it. But that's what we do. Justin: The website honey just sold for whatever, 4 billion that's a coupon code engine. Shane: That’s crazy Justin So it is, it is really hard to pull up from that nosedive. And so what I've been doing with this new company of ours too, is I've been saying okay, you can buy something, then I'll give you a discount off Shane: Say the next one for sure. Yeah Justin: Or kind of doing that. But I've seen companies that will be go in and they're like, Oh, it's everything is 70% off and it's always 70% off, it's like know, your prices are really bad. And they're trying to make it up from volume. But anytime they waver from that big discount, they don't get any customers and discounts kind of bringing a crappy customer too. So I've been trying to really just incentivize people like, Hey, here's a free gift of taking a page out of dillards or Macy's you go in and buy Cologne and you get a free bag with purchase or whatever. And football front type scenario, way back in the day. Shane: Yeah, we've done a lot of bundling. So we'll say hey, you want that discount so great. Like we've had like fitness products or like ebooks and stuff. For obviously, there's no more cost for us to be able to give them one ebook or two ebooks. So we would bundle a lot of stuff too, right? So hey, you pay $20 for this, or will give you a 20% discount if you buy two, right. So now they're incentivized, oh, hey, let me go and buy two and doesn't cost us any more money. It just increases the cost of their spending or the cost that they I guess with the acquisition cost. Justin: Well, and if you bundle in something like a hat in a shirt, and complete the kind of outfit type scenario one of them is going to have a much higher margin. Shane: Yeah Justin: Yeah, and the other and it's going to make up any difference you have. Because if you get that up, if your cost for acquisition is 30 bucks and your first product is 30 bucks yeah, sure, that'd be great. If I can acquire customers all day long for free, then you get that other and you move your average order value now is all of a sudden 57 bucks. Yeah that makes a big, big difference. So even if you're offering a 10% savings, or what have you, with the exception of this time of year being Black Friday, all the gloves come off, and it doesn't matter if you discount it's not going to hurt your brand. Shane: Just go all in, who cares? So tell me a little bit. So you wrote a book, right? It was a Conversion Fanatics, like how to double your customers sales and profits with AB testing. When did you write that book? Just a few years ago huh? Justin: I think I published it late 2015. So four years now, I guess. And I kind of wrote it from the standpoint of being timeless, because I've seen that it's like we've been talking about areas that long, things haven't really changed. It goes with the same buying habits. And I wrote it in a way that I didn't want to fluff anything up. I read a lot of books and a lot of them are just fluffed up really and takes you forever to get through the book and you get three to four different nuggets out of it. But now I went through and just wanted to write it so you can flip to any page. And it's short, it's only 150 pages, but it took me over a year to write it because I wanted that aspect. I want to be very straightforward and you can flip to any page and get some kind of actionable idea whether you're a new to optimization or you're a seasoned veteran, and I've had great feedback from both sides of it. Shane: That's awesome and well, congrats on that. I know that my goal in 2020 is to get a book but I ran into the same thing like I'm big in the influencer space so a lot of influencer type stuff do a lot of speaking engagements. But the hardest part is like I’m going to write a book but it's like I want to write something that's somewhat evergreen, influencer I don't want to talk about Instagram which you know. Instagram could be gone in two years not really it's probably not but you get my point like, write about something that is like this overall arching influence has been this from day one type situations, it's evolved a little bit but these are the main concepts of it, but that hasn't changed in regards to whatever followers and stuff so anyways, I'm kind intrigued by that I mean, I have to read your book sounds like it's only 120 pages that right down my alley anything over 151 pages is difficult for me but 150 is the mark for me. Justin: Yeah, it's actually a very easy read. I get it because of that sheer fact that I wanted to write like how I read, and I did it. Easy read. Shane: That's awesome. So cool. We're getting to the end of this thing. I have a question. So if you were so you're gonna be what, 39 you said or you are 39? Justin: I just turned 39 Shane: Just 39 so if you had a chance to go back in time and tell Mr. 18 year old Justin something, what would you tell him? What would be something that you would say Hey, dude, like this is like you went back in time you went to Marty McFly route you know, now you went back and you said hey, this is what you got, like probably don't get on that bull probably will be the first thing you say. But I think or maybe you would want to get on the bull, I don't know. But what would be, is there anything you think that you'd like, hey, you would tell yourself Hey, you should do this differently or Hey, don't do this or, or you like the journey you've taken? Justin: I don't have any regrets on anything that I've done. I would probably go back and probably tell myself to stick through this. Some of those ideas, I gave up on some ideas when the going got tough early on that I probably should have I basically had the software that ended up now is I think they just took 150 million dollar round of funding and are doing quite well with about 400 employees. So I had that software before they came out with that software and let it die. So just some of those aspects, probably just like sticking it out. I kind of bounced around for the idea for a while. Shane: Yeah, now I know how that goes. I mean, there's and I hate that I used to, well I still do is write down ideas. And then what I would do is if somebody would go and do something and I would go and show my wife, hey I wrote that three years ago, and she goes, oh that sounds great. You know, like how I wish I would have done some, I mean, there's always those. I'm like you I don't really have any regrets. I think my path was my path. And that's kind of the way that it goes. But there are a few things that you know, that I would do a little differently. I think that would just be a little tweak that you learn just through experience and through knowledge. So some other things I want to talk about. So tell me about it, because you have a very colorful background in regards to just the different stuff that you've done. So who are three people that you would want to have dinner with, dead or alive, that would be once again, it can be whoever you like, because you have the rodeo side of things you have... Anyways, there's a lot of interesting things, as are three people that you would say, hey, these are people I would love to have dinner with? Justin: I want to have one more dinner with my grandmother Shane: For sure. Justin: My first one, I miss a lot of our conversations that we used to have. Three people. Shane: I mean, there's like any musicians, anybody like that, or is there anybody like a rodeo star? I mean, is there a somebody ex-president or you know, Justin: Not really, I mean, I meet so many cool people and I don't get really starstruck or like I've met billionaires to everything. And I think it's more personal than that. I've been fortunate enough to ask a lot of hard questions to a lot of top dog people and having lunch with guys worth $500 million, and things like that from the business front. So I mean, I can't really pick out three people it would be I mean, the only thing that really jumps out in my head would be my grandmother. I mean, not even an ex-president. I mean, I'm not that political. I'm not any of those aspects. So I mean, that's a tough one. I don’t think I can answer all three. Shane: Yeah, no worries, no worries at all. And then here goes my last question of the day other than well I got one of the questions actually limits to like two questions. So my last question, or my second last question is going to be if you had 100 million dollars, let's say 10 million I don’t know why a 100 million, 100 million is a lot. If I gave you a $10 million lottery ticket, what would you do with the money? Justin: Pay off my family's debt, both sides of parents, and then go into real estate with the rest of it. Shane: Nice. Well, that's funny. So I do real estate, I flip properties. So that's one of the things… I jumped into it just last year too, because I used to do it a long time ago. So anyways, it's fun, I enjoy the hustle of it and getting deals and stuff kind of like marketing, but a little different. Yeah, well, cool Justin, this has been awesome. And I thank you so much for taking the time today. If anybody wants to get in contact with you through your social media through your website, can one give us some of the fun stuff? Justin: Yeah, so you can find me at, you can find me on social by going to clyxo [] all one word, has link to all my social channels, YouTube, all of those fun stuff and it's kind of my online business card so you can find all the links in one place. Shane: That's awesome. Well good deal Justin once again man, thank you so much for taking the time today. You have an awesome rest of your day. And you guys if you're listening to the podcast, if this is your first time don't forget to download and also subscribe to it. And Justin had an awesome day my friend. Justin: All right I appreciate having me on the show.


Shane Barker is a digital marketing consultant who specializes in influencer marketing, product launches, sales funnels, targeted traffic, and website conversions. He has consulted with Fortune 500 companies, influencers with digital products, and a number of A-List celebrities.


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