Marcus Sheridan is a highly sought-after international keynote speaker known for his unique ability to excite, engage, and motivate live audiences with his simple, yet powerful transformational business approach.
- The Importance of Communication
- How to Understand Your Customers
- The Importance of Transparency With Customers
[1:00] Marcus Talks About His Businesses
[6:58] Marcus Discusses His Experiences With Brands
[11:38] The Section That Every Website Doesn’t Have
[18:18] Marcus Talks About His Marketing Strategy
[23:11] How to Implement the Strategy
[34:28] Marcus Explains How He Understands Customers
[38:25] Marcus on the Art of Communication
[47:18] Books to Understand it Better
The content that you create has a profound impact on your marketing and sales. If you provide helpful content to your audience, you can get a lot more customers. However, if you fail to do so, you may not be able to reach your maximum potential, even if your product is awesome.
To help you figure out the best content to effectively communicate with your customers, I have with me, Marcus Sheridan. Through his unique approach of being transparent with customers, he’s generated over $7 million in revenue for his fiberglass pool company from a single post!
Here is the content that he recommends every business must use to communicate with their customers effectively:
1. Costs, Comparisons, and Reviews
Businesses typically resort to hiding their pricing from their potential customers till the last moment. Customers also find it difficult to find information that they can use to compare a business with its competitors. Some businesses also try hard to hide negative reviews from their audience.
According to Marcus Sheridan, all of these practices are completely wrong.
The information that you’re trying to hide from your customers is the exact information that they seek. In Marcus’ words, the buyers seek their, “Big 5 – Cost, Comparison, Reviews, Positive, Negative.” As the business owner, your goal should be to provide this information to your audience so that they can make an informed decision before purchasing from you.
2. Who the Product or Service Isn’t for
Marcus argues that you should try to be as transparent as possible with your customers. While businesses often have some sort of, “Who is this for?” or “Use Cases” page, they seldom have a page that’s got information on “Who are we not fit for?”
This information, according to Marcus, is crucial for customers to make a decision. You should concentrate on getting only those customers who are a good fit for your business. Those who aren’t a good fit for your business may not like your offerings. That’s why it’s critical to share this information with consumers.
Brands must understand what consumers are looking for before making a purchase. You must do everything you can to share this information with them to help them make a more informed decision.
It’s essential for you to also let them know if your product or service is right for them. In a nutshell, the content that you create should improve the transparency of your business.
What are the other important forms of content for businesses? Let me know in the comments.
Shane: Welcome to the podcast. I am Shane Barker, your host of Shane Barker's Marketing Madness Podcast. In this episode, we will be talking about sales, marketing and communication. My guest Marcus Sheridan is a highly sought after international keynote speaker known for his ability to excite, engage, and motivate live audiences with his simple yet powerful transformational business approach. Listen as he talks about the importance of understanding customers communicating effectively and asking questions. Okay you guys today we have Marcus Sheridan on the podcast really excited about having them here today. You know, Marcus, why don't you tell the audience if they don't already know about you? Tell us a little bit about yourself. Marcus: Yeah, so here's a quick one on one, I'll try to make the long story short. It's great to be here Shane, and I started a swimming pool company, literally out of the back of a pickup truck with a couple buddies in 2001, I was centrally out of college. And things were going okay for us up until the market collapsed in 2008-2009. And I thought we're going to lose the business. And it looked like I was going to lose my home my two business partners lost their homes so our 60 employees, we're gonna have to be laid off. And that's right about the time when I really started to learn about what we might call today inbound or content or digital or any of this blogging social lot stuff. And when I looked at it all in my simple pool guy, mind, I read this as Okay, Marcus, if you just assess over your customers questions, and you're willing to address them, you just might save your business. And so I said, All right, we're going to be the best teachers in the world when it comes to fiberglass swimming pools. And that's what we ended up being. And again, to make a long story short, we end up becoming the most traffic simple website in the world. It saved our business. And we became the largest builders’ fiberglass pools in US now our manufacturing fiberglass pool shells as well, because we got so many leads that I had to take advantage of those outside of our area of Virginia that’s where we installed the pools. And so now we have dealers all over the country. In the process of doing this, I started to write about what I was learning and I started a really simple blog in 2009 like six months after I started the ask and answer, and it was called the sales lion. Lions in sales sounded better than marketing. So nobody really listened for the most part for about 6 to 12 months. And then suddenly, I started to pick up a little bit of traction chain and had some companies say could you teach us how to do that thing you do with your pool company? And then I had some conferences saying can you share that story. And that led to two things that were significant. It led to me starting an agency and that agency today is called IMPACT. Right so Sales Lionsbecame Impact and Impact has about 70 ish employees. And we do digital sales and marketing strategy, consulting for brands and companies all over the world now. And I'm speaking full time professionally. So I still spend a couple hours a week, my pool company still on it, spend about 10 hours a week with my agency. But I spend the rest of my time traveling and getting in front of audiences and spreading the word, which of course is they ask you answer and the book came out about three years ago, and it just came out in a revised version because it's been growing in momentum to usually books slow way down after six months. It's actually picked up after six months, and it's kept going. And so it's been an amazing ride. And so that's the journey I've been on over the last I guess 10 years since 2009. Shane: It's crazy. I obviously know your background. I looked it up like a pool company to where you're at today. It's an interesting thing because I mean, I think of like not to compare to Gary Vee, but Gary Vee has, you know, wine back in the day and then how it transitioned into like, how he learned what he learned from there, and he's taken it to the next level and I think it was a lot of those things. We have companies that you know were kind of make or break you and you're in a situation you're like, God, how am I gonna… you know, you're learning as you go. Most people in at least in 2009 2010 weren't talking about what they were doing to be successful, right? I mean, the blogging thing started become kind of big everybody's I'm not going to give up my secrets. I think you went the opposite route. You're like, Hey, I'm going to tell everybody what I'm doing what's working, what's not working, which I think is catapult you where you at today, where you're now able to speak in the workshops, because you've been doing it for so long, right? You documented your journey, which I think a lot of people didn't do. I think that was Marcus: Yeah I think there was a few things, you know, if I'm looking at it analytically, right? And one of them is most people can put their arms around the pool guy story, right. And there's so many, we may go into them. Like there's intricacies of how we had this crazy success. The approach of they ask you answer wasn't one that was genius at all right? In others, it just made so much sense to me. But it turns out that nobody really was doing many of the things that we were doing. It ended up being outrageously innovative for the time and what's crazy about it to this day, Shane, we're a decade later. And still most companies do not really embrace this philosophy, right? They can put their arms around the story very easy. Also, I would say that I've managed this, call it just success or whatever want to call it because I've never tried to sound smart. I think this is one of those things we talk about just anything, content, your website, your brand, your message as a speaker, whatever it is. There's a group of people that if you look at them, you can just tell there's something there. They're trying to sound smart. In the moment we try to sound smart, we start to lose a percentage of our audience. But if we release that, right, and we say my only job today is communion, I'm only here so as to potentially induce a light bulb moment by me sharing with the world what the world has taught me in simple terms not here to prove anything. And that really resonated. I think it resonated with all these pool shoppers right? It really resonated as I started to talk about what we were doing and people were like, this makes so much sense. Why are we not doing this? And then it continues to resonate today. That's why it's been so fun. It's been so cool for me right? But I think we forget that oftentimes we try to sound smart and it's probably the number one piece of feedback that I give to people whether it's a speaker whether it's a brand that's doing video, or they're doing content, like what are you trying to prove here? Because it's obvious to me that you're trying to show that you're intelligent if you just teach me without trying to show it, it'll happen organically. Shane: Yeah, I like that because it is one of those things that when people try to act smarter than say it turns a lot of people off right so like I get it you're Mr. guru or your Mr. This but I think you have a really good way of being very genuine like when you put the information out there it's like you're literally just sharing it right? It's like here let me put this out there not and showing your expertise and doing that but that's not really the goal right. I think the goal is to say this is like what I've learned I'm literally giving you guys a gift of, hey read this and maybe hopefully you get something from it. Marcus: But if there's a component of it, that is and I say this, you have to take in the right context, there's a component, whenever you teach something, you have to teach in a way, like, here it is. Now you can take it or leave it, it's okay. I'm okay either way with what you do with it, right? So let me give an example. And it's almost like sharing it with nothing to lose. So one of the things that, in general, companies have struggles with when they produce messaging and content is they immediately sounds biased. There's certain things that we do that make a viewer make a reader say, they don't really have my best interests at heart, right? So let me give you an example of that. So the principle of they asked you to answer is, you obsess over your customers questions and you feel like it's your moral obligation to address them on the front end, that digital realm because if you don't address it, you know that they'll look somewhere else and that's who they're ultimately going to do business with. That's in a nutshell, right? And so one example of this is people used to ask me as a fiberglass pool builder. They used to ask me all the time so Marcus, be honest, what is the difference between concrete and fiberglass pool? Why should I choose fiberglass? Okay, 99% of pool companies are going to say all the reasons why you should choose fiberglass. That's what they're going to do in that moment. And that's why they fail to stand out. Because that's not going to induce trust. And it's going to show that your bias. So how would you do that? So let's say being hypothetical right now, but let's say I was going to produce an article or a video on the difference between concrete in fiberglass pools and all I sell is fiberglass pool right. So let's say I'm going to produce that it's going to sound like this. And oh, by the way, like this structure is something that we've replicated thousands of times now. And it's the same thing over and over again. But again, most companies don't do what I'm getting ready to show you how to do here. And so as I'm saying this, if you're listening to this, think about Okay, is that the way we communicate online so I might sound something like this, Shane. So one of the questions I get here, all the time is okay, Marcus, be honest, tell me, why should I choose fiberglass over concrete? Well, the truth is, you shouldn't always choose fiberglass over concrete. In fact, there are times when concrete is the better option. So what this article or what this video is going to do, it's going to honestly and transparently explain to you the pros and the cons of both types of swimming pools. And then by the end, hopefully you'll have a great sense as to which is the best choice for you. Now, when I'm with an audience, and I say after I do that, how often do companies communicate with you that way? They say, almost never, almost never. I was with a really big brand. Heck, I'll say the name. I was with Bass Pro Shops recently, and we were launching their new ATV line that Tracker makes, so Tracker, they make boats and they also make out ATVs. And we were shooting videos out there at their headquarters, I was overseeing it. And it was fascinating because part of the scripting process we had to say we were doing reviews of their ATVs and part of it we said in this video, we're going to help you get a sense as to whether or not this is the right ATV for you. And the folks from the manufacturing side of it that were there from the manufacturing side were like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean? We're going to help you decide if this is the right fit for you? Of course, it's the right fit for them. I'm like, No, it's not. So we proceeded to have this nice little debate, right? When you base things on psychology, and you based things on what would I want, if I was the viewer, the listener or the reader in this moment, it gets pretty simple to make those types of decisions. Shane: Yeah, for sure. Marcus: Yeah and I think that's what's interesting is that it's like everybody, most people would sell right on why this is the best option, right? Not really necessarily think about what are they looking for? They're looking for a non biased opinion from somebody who's usually going to be bias. So you're really giving them the answer of like here, once again, it's not for everybody. I mean, I get that. So I do most of my speaking stuff that I do is about influencer marketing, just because it's kind of a hot term and I've been doing it, I teach a class at UCLA. The reason I'm telling you that is because what people say is well, influencer marketing is good for everybody, I go it's not it's absolutely not right. And I'll tell you there's obviously certain niches and certain companies that it makes more sense to do influencer marketing. But it's not for everybody, right? Because I don't want to sell you and say it’s for everybody. And here's the reasons why it is good for certain companies and not good for other companies. I think people appreciate that, right? Because they're not used to that they're not used to people, you know, because that's the thing, you're not trying to pull in everybody, right? You're trying to pull in the people because then you have a better qualified client, or person because they've read through this and said, Hey, out of these nine things, eight of those are me. And these are the two big things I was worried about. And that's why it makes more sense to go with a summit pool or you know, or something like that. They're not used to that people being that honest. And when you are that honest, it's like, Okay, well, that actually really… [OVERLAPPING CONVERSATION 11:39] Marcus: Let me tell you the most important section of a website that every company should have that nobody listening to this podcast has right now. Shane: No? Marcus: It is the section that is, we're not a good fit for. This is easily one of the highest converting pages of your site, if you have it. All right. So once again, this goes like simple psychology. Generally speaking, everybody's going to say who they are and why they're special. Maybe the problems they solve, but almost never does somebody say who we are not a good fit for. But the moment you say what you're not, is the moment you become dramatically more attractive to those who you are a good fit for. Right? So is the same thing if I say, no fiberglass pool is not for you, if you're looking for something longer than 40 feet, wider than 16 feet very customized in terms of shape or depth. But if you're looking for a low maintenance pool, that's going to last you a lifetime. That's less than 65 x 40 in less than eight feet deep. And we do have a shape that does fit your needs. Well, then it might be a great choice for you. Now the qualified person that is a fit is going to hear them say, perfect. I wanted a 16 by 32 rectangle three to five feet deep. This is absolutely what I was looking for. So it creates a greater sense of wanting in that moment, but it's so fascinating that companies are almost never willing to say that. So if you put a section on your site that says who were not a good fit for, and you do it without sarcasm, if you're not snarky, but if you really do it with honesty, you will find that it is a very high converter. Shane: It's funny so we and I done something like that revamped my site now but we did have something on my site, it was a while ago we did have on there like it was not a good fit like if you don't have a budget anything under $10,000 a month if you don't have some kind of you know, we put that on there we actually receive you know, not everybody read it people would go on there be like $500 what can you do? And I'm like, Well, you know, let me help you out a little bit, let me throw you some bones or have you send me an article or something but there was, we did see a good amount of people because once can we really want I mean, I don't care about 1000 leads. I can hear about the 10 perfect leads, right? Or the 10 leads that are going to be better are going to come in that are more qualified because they've already read some of it and said, I am a good fit. And he seems like he's a good fit, because I already know what he's not willing to work with. And I think and I hopefully I'll be able to get on his radar and be able to work with him because I'm a good fit, because I know what he doesn't like, right or what isn't a good fit. So I think it's interesting. I love the concept of that. And once again, I think it's, you got to get on more stages, my friend. I mean, that's it, you know… Marcus: What's fascinating about this is I see this across the board and companies, they just don't do it, right. And that's because they're coming from this place of, to your point, we need as many leads as possible. But they all the studies have proven otherwise. Like there's a recent B2B study that came out that said, on the typical B2B sale, over 50% of the time, the prospect is not a good fit. Think about that, over 50% of time, so why in the world are we not telling that and teaching them that on the front end, they very, very much appreciate it. And this is how you set a tone early on that know this company, this brand, they're not like everybody else. And yes, they do have my interest at heart here. And that's something that's unique. And these are little things that we can do. It's no different than let's say, let's look at messaging from like the homepage of your website. Let's just take a simple example. A lot of people on the homepage of their site might have a section that says, what makes us special, or why we're great or something along those lines, right, what makes us unique, that's actually not the smartest way to say it. The smartest way to say it is, for example, a headline like this. Are we really any different than anybody else? Question mark. Now that causes me to lean in? Because that's exactly what I'm thinking. Yeah, that's not the way that most companies would do a headline. You see what I'm saying? And it's all the same principle. Right? It's all the same principle. For about three, four years, we've been teaching companies a lot with video. And one of the highest converting or one of the most effective videos that we see working is videos that go next to forms on landing pages. Now, what's fascinating about this is when somebody fills out a form on a website, there's essentially four major fears that they have. Are you going to spam me to death? Are you going to email me to death, what you can do with my information like privacy? And what's going to happen if I fill out this form? So those are the four major questions or fears that people have. So here's what you want to do you want to put a video immediately next, that form now that video should have a title if it doesn't have a title, it doesn't get watched, right, which is crazy. How many videos don't have titles on websites today, but that's beside the point. Now, here's the thing. The title though, is the key here because the title needs to be done in a way that the person is thinking it and so the title to that video would be see exactly what will happen if you fill out this form. Problem is a lot of people make the title, why you should fill out this form. That's a note bias. But as soon as you strip bias from all messaging, it's way more attractive and people lean in. So how did you… Shane: And it's so funny we [UNCLEAR 17:10] little backwards which I do appreciate we're not going to move back I'm not going to find out where you grew up by being in the podcast so what's interesting for me about this is how did you come up? I mean, was this all from the pool game, from you jumping in there and you kind of realizing some of this like having some aha moments? I mean, was this something that, I mean it, usually that's what it is, right? It's not that hey, I went to this university and they instructed me… I mean, potentially, but for you, is it just real world experience, like you're in the middle of this thing going, Okay, I'm about to lose my house, a lot of stuffs hitting the fan. And I'm like, Okay, wait a second. If I really evaluate what people are asking, I asked to answer those questions. Because what you're saying sounds so simplistic, right when you say it now, or that it wasn't right. I mean, it is 20 minutes ago for me I but now when you say I go, that's the most simplistic thing ever. But yet brilliant, because once again, people don't think about when somebody comes to my website, what are they truly thinking? What are their fears? What are they worried about? And a good percentage of them have those same fears because we're thinking about it like, we've got to hurry up and sell them. Because we have seven seconds. It's like, well, how do I pull these people in and how do I get in their head and think about what they're thinking? And I think it's just brilliant in nature. Marcus: Yeah. So I appreciate this question. And it is a more difficult one to ask because I could tell at an early age, right around 20, I guess it was that I explained things generally. It wasn't arrogance, there was this is knowing if you will, I could tell that I explained things in a way that people understood them better than many other people did. And I noticed as I was obsessive about watching receivers of information, and how often times they didn't get it. So let's say I was watching somebody teaching someone else. And I was watching the student or the receiver in this case, the audience, whoever it was, and I remember thinking even at a younger age, right, even in my teen years, I was like, well, the person doesn't understand yet the teachers moving on why? It doesn't make any sense. Why are we moving on right now this person doesn't get it. And it would cause me like complete anger. Like, really why. And so it was this early, innate sense for, okay, simplicity is beautiful. And if you can say things in an incisive way, that anybody could sit there and say, that makes sense to me, you're going to ultimately be a more effective communicator, right? And then that's also where they asked me the answer comes from, it was the most simple strategy that people could put their arms around. Okay, so if I've gotten the question, I just need to be willing to address it the way they think it feel it and search it. Yeah. Okay. I can do that. So there's nothing complicated about that a lot of people to try to make it more of a science and what it is, but because I really try to strip it down and make it less of a science, it was more effective. And when you do really become obsessed. And I don't mean that word lightly, Shane. But when you become obsessed with the way buyers think, then it really does force you to consider things that you've never done before. Because you're constantly saying, well, how would I like that? Like how I feel about that, but I understand that. And this is why it's like I still to this day, a company, a brand will show me something I'm like, but it doesn't make sense to me it was how does it make sense? It's because it doesn't make sense. Your viewers are not going to understand this because it's not abundantly clear. It's not obvious. And here's how you can tell it if it's obvious. It's obvious if they can hear it and then teach it to somebody else. That's the quickest litmus test, is a way you can you can test certain things on this all the time. So if I explain, they ask you answer to somebody in seconds later, they could explain that to somebody else. Simple right. Now, if you explain the definition of content marketing to somebody, as per Wikipedia is definition and if you read that, how spreadable how shareable how easy is that? To understand from someone else from another receiver of said information? It's not. You see, this is the reason why we have struggles with buying all over the world. And this is the reason why frankly, a lot of marketers struggle is because they do not speak the language of the rest of their business. They speak the language of marketing, which inherently is built to fail. Shane: And I think that's, but this is the hardest part, even though it's simplistic in nature, it's probably one of the most difficult things to do because you have to really have a clear message like a real, I think that's such a hard thing to do, because I think you touched it with the marketing thing, right? We're trained as marketers, so you gotta hurry up and do this and you have this much time to get their attention you got to do this and you got to explain to them why you're the best and it's so it's such ass backwards when we talk about this, but trying to take in something from your whatever it is you're you know, two paragraphs down to one sentence or two sentences or you talk about your pitch. It says if you're with an investor in an elevator, and you have seven seconds to pitch him, what do you tell him, right and then it's like we… I did this thing at Google or something, this was many, many years ago. And they wouldn't have value, it think it was a value statement, what we would do is we had to really first was paragraphs and then we knocked it down to a few sentences. It was this deal is like, it's not easy, right? Because you're like, how do I put in everything in there in one sentence so that somebody once again, it's easy for somebody to remember, be able to say, Okay, well tell me what Marcus does, Marcus does this, this, this and this, it's pretty simple, actually. Right? It's like doing that and obviously I know you have workshops and stuff that you put on. But that's like, I know, that's difficult because I've done it myself. I'm not that good at it, I'll be honest, I look at my stuff when I go… and I've got so much more work. I'm going to show this to my team, they're gonna be like, I knew we shouldn't have interviewed Marcus because now we're going to revamp everything. Right? And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. The team will be okay with that too. I'm sure. But you get my point of like, it's it is difficult to really hone in that message. I mean, how do you… obviously reading your book, is a great first start. I know you do workshops and stuff. I'm just trying to figure out, of course I know there is no easy answer. It's not like hey Shane you read my book and you can revamp everything, everything will be awesome. But like, how do you get going with this? I mean, let's say, you know, somebody can’t afford you or whatever, like, what would be the next steps like, what do you start your process? Marcus: So let's say you said yourself, all right, I want to embrace this mindset, this philosophy, which is really a customer first mindset. It's a mindset of we're going to be the best teachers in the world, that we're going to become obsessive listeners. That's the first thing that you essentially agree to right? Now, once this happens, then you say, all right, so if we're going to really address our customers’ questions, we need to start with what they're asking. And so you get your sales people together. You say, what are the questions you're hearing all the time, every single day? Exactly how they say them? There's a lot of questions, a lot of questions. Now, here's what's interesting though, the book talks a ton about this shame. I've never seen an industry that's an exception to what I'm getting ready to tell you. So it's B2B B2C service product, big, small, local, national, and just across the board. It's basically five subjects that buyers are obsessed about with almost any product or service five subjects. And the book, we call it the Big Five, what are the big five? The things that you and I want to know before we engage a company, so as to feel like we've done a little bit of vetting, dental work, and now we can move to the next phase, right of the buying process. So those five subjects are this as buyers were obsessed with, how much is it? We wanna know about the money, as buyers we want to know what are the negatives, the issues, the problems with this particular thing, this company, this methodology, okay. So we want to know about money cost, we want to know about the negatives, the problems, we want to know, how does that thing compare to the other thing that we're also looking at? You've gotten to the point we feel like we always have to compare so as to make an informed decision. Okay, so we're obsessed with comparing. As buyers, we're obsessed with what everybody else is saying about it. In other words, reviews. And as buyers were obsessed with the best. We like to find out we like to research what the best thing is. It doesn't mean we're buying it, we just want to know what it is so we can work off of it. So cost, problems, comparisons, reviews and best. Those are the big five. That's what buyers like us, you me, we want to know, here's what's crazy. Buyers obsessed with them. And businesses do not like to talk about them. They don't. So here's the quick litmus test that you can do that's going to give you the fastest gauge as to whether or not your content is truly effective, especially generating sales revenue. And that's how I really defined efficacy in the world of business is what generates sales revenue, not here to talk about like what drives a click, I just don't really care, right? Because when you've looked at bankruptcy square in the face, you don't really care about vanity metrics any longer. You just care about really what drives revenue. Now, you'll see that these five subjects, they help your sales team immediately. Your sales team could be using them all the time. And so the litmus test is this, what percentage of the content you put on your website could be used by your Sales Team today, right now. In other words, what percent would they say? That's exactly what I've been looking for? Because I'm dealing with that right now with a prospect. If the answer is not much you have problem, I can tell you that at least 80% of your content should be aligned, should fall under the umbrella that is the big five, you're like, what do you mean that only five subjects? Oh, no, it's actually way, way more than that. But that covers almost everything. I mean, it really covers a ton of questions that people are asking all the time. These are all the bottom of the funnel based questions, right. And what's interesting about content in general and content strategy, Shane, the mistake that most companies make is they start in the top or outside of the funnel, it's generally very fluffy in a sales team or salesperson could never really benefit from whatever was produced. It wouldn't help them very much. Let me give you an example of this. So let's say I'm a pool guy, and I wanted to produce an article or a video that says five fun games to play in your swimming pool. That's nice. But it's completely worthless to me as a salesperson, as a pool guy, and my course of selling pools, which was almost 10 years, nobody ever asked me, What are some fun games I could play in the pool ever? Because they didn't care to ask me that. They had another set of questions for me. So I set aside if they wanted in ground pool, do they want a fiberglass pool? And what type of, and it’s like all these components like, specific questions. And so because we didn't mess around fluff, and we attacked those bottom of the funnel questions, we got immediate results. You see company shy away from immediate results, because this is the stuff that companies usually never talk about. So let me give you a couple examples. If that's okay Shane, because this is really, really important. It's like a crux of what we're talking about here. So used to be that people would ask me all the time Marcus how much is the fiberglass pool? What's this going to cost me Just give me feel what are we looking at here? And what I'm about to tell you applies to B2B or B2C. So whether you sell a service or a product is same deal. So please don't put yourself in the corner of ‘this doesn't apply’ because I promise you that it does. And so if I was asking anybody's listening to this right now, have you research how much something costs online in last year? He’d a yes and I said, Okay, so if you're on a website, and you're researching costs and pricing can't find it, what's the emotion you experience? You say frustrated. And I say, why, he says well, because I'm the buyer, and it's my right to know. And then I would say to you, okay, so when you get frustrated, do you sit there and dig further on the website? You like, no, I need to jump. If I said to you, well, when you get frustrated, you can't find it on somebody's website, you say to yourself, well, that's okay. They're not talking about cost and price. They're a value based business, and I'll call them on the phone instead. Which again, is completely false, because that's not what you do. It's not what we do. Instead of calling the company or digging further on their website, we just keep searching and we search until we find and generally speaking, whoever gives us the answer we are looking for, they're going to get our business. And if we get to the psychology of this, the real reason we get so upset as buyers is because we know as the buyer that they know is the business the answers to the question, and because we know they know the answer, not giving it to us. We now feel like they're hiding something from us. And the moment you and I feel like anybody's hiding anything from us, well, then trust is gone. And that's the business that we're all in. It's the one thing that we all share. So you say, well, Marcus, you know, you don't understand my business. No, I do understand your business. In fact, there's three major reasons why companies don't talk about cost and price on their website, it comes down to three fundamental reasons. The first the biggest one, is the old answer. Well, it depends. We have a customized solution. Every job is different, etc, etc. So if I came to anybody that sells a product or service, and I came to you and I said, so can you help me understand the factors that would drive the cost of your product or service up? You'd say, yes. I said, Could you explain the factors that would keep it down? You'd say yes. I said, You gave me a quote, and some of your competitors gave me a quote. And I see that they're very different in terms of price tag, but you're essentially all telling me, you're going to sell me the same thing. Help me understand the data here. Why is there a difference? Could you explain that? Anybody would say yes, because you probably explained that especially if you're in sales, you've explained that hundreds of times over the course of your lifetime in that profession, right? So the idea of it depends, it's the easiest one to explain. And it's the most important one to explain. You need to explain all the factors that drive it up the factors that keep the cost down, and why some companies are expensive, why some companies are cheap. If you do not explain that you will, unintentionally commoditize the very product or service that you're selling, because what commoditizes anything is ignorance in the marketplace. And what allows ignorance in the marketplace to exist is the fact that companies don't talk about the basics until after somebody has shook the hand of the salesperson which goes against everything that we have become as digital buyers and digital consumers. The second reason why we don't talk about cost and price on our website, is we say things like it's too expensive, or more expensive, and we don't want to scare people away. But what we all know is the thing that actually scares us away is when a company doesn't talk about cost and price. It's ignorance. That's what scares us. It's no different than let's say hypothetically, you wanted to go to a new restaurant tonight Shane. If you're like most humans, you're probably going to do two things. You're probably going to look at reviews for that website, you're going to look at their menu before you go. It's pretty common, most people do this. So if you go to the menu before you go, and there is no pricing, you're still going to go. Almost all people now won't go. And it's not because they can't afford it because you could afford most restaurants. It's because they left it blank. And the moment they let the blank, they plant the seed of doubt. When the seed of doubt exists, inertia occurs and you stop. That's just how it works, right? Third reason why we don't like to talk about cost and price on our websites, we say things like we want the competition to know, it's funny about that one is, if I came to anybody that's had any experience in the industry, especially in sales, and I said, Do you have a pretty good sense as to what your competitors charge? They would say, of course. And so here's the big secret. If you know what your competitors charge or roughly what they charge it means they also know what you charge. This is the big secret non secret everybody acts like nobody knows what everybody's charging when in reality everybody has a pretty good sense as to what everybody else is charging. So it’s like when was the last time you competitors paid your bills? They just have it right. So why in the world would you allow your competitors stand between you and that thing that we call trust? So if you look at it like this, it just doesn't make sense. You know, we produced an article on how much does the fiberglass pool cost? Right? We were the first swimming pool company in the world that aggressively talked about swimming pool cost, all the factors that drove it up, that drove it down. We gave price ranges, we gave the whole nine. To make a long story really short Shane, because I wrote that article on how much says a fiberglass pool cost or guide to fiberglass pool cost. It's made over $7 million in sales since it was written from my little swimming pool company $7 million, 7 million in sales off of that one article that explains why it depends. You see, you can't always answer but you can always address and this is the part that too many people forget. And usually the victory goes the one that's willing to have the conversation, even if it means that the answer isn't found, but they at least help the buyer, the consumer say, Okay, now at least I understand the parameters here. And I know what I'm getting myself into $7 million for 90% of our clients that I've worked with, which is hundreds of clients that we now have that embrace they asked you answer for 90%. This is B2B included. The number one traffic sales and lead generating content has to do with cost and price. Yet when I'm in a room, Shane, and I asked audiences because I do this all the time, and I speak full time professionally, right? So I'm always asking this question. How many of you in this room right now talk a lot about costs and pricing your website, I've never had an audience with the number was over 10% ever. If you go to a B2B service based audience, it's less than 2% of the room. It goes contrary to all logic, yet, it's still a prolific problem amongst businesses all over the world. We're simply not treating others as we ourselves would want to be treated as buyers. We want to know and if we know and we feel good about it, then I'll give you a call. But if you don't bother telling me you expect me to make a call out ignorance, well then you got nothing coming. That's the game that we're in. Shane: So how did you get them, I mean when you talk about the psychology of this, is this once again, is this something obviously over time that you realize or is this, Marcus you are heavy in the psychology side of things. And once again, when you talk about it, you remind me of one of my instructors in college where it was like 1000 aha moments she's writing on the board. I can't raise my hand fast enough. Because there's so many so much stuff that's going on. We talk about psychology in a way that people think, and it's usually, I mean, there's 1000 blog posts about psychology and how people buy but yet, it's feels as marketers and as brands we've like gone the opposite way because of, for whatever reason, it just seems so counterintuitive. Once again, as you explain it. Marcus: Well, to me, I'm just really good at analyzing my own behavior. So I'm constantly throughout any given week saying, Oh, I would like that. I'd want to know that where that would turn me off. That would annoy me. And so I think we actually overanalyze. I don't think you need to read any books on psychology. I have not. But if we're just willing to look at what makes us feel good about a company or about a piece of content or about a video. What makes you look at a thumbnail and YouTube and say, I don't like that guy. Yet you haven't hit play yet. Analyze that, there's something there. By the way, the answer to that is, the person is trying to appear smart in the thumbnail. And immediately that turns you off. That's the reason if you got to the core, right, it's a threatening component to it. And so I just don't think most marketers spend enough time in this land of self awareness, really looking at it and calling a spade a spade. And we've all got this capability within us. I think it's untapped for the most part Shane. Shane: So here's the thing. First of all, were you in debate, I feel like you were in debate in high school or something like that. You seem like the guy that's like, you probably have never yelled or anything. Have you? You seem like the guy that's just like, let me just think this out a little bit. And then I think the thing is, this is what I want to answer for the audience is I think naturally you get it. Right. I think, as you touched on earlier, like you just have this knack for looking at something going. I don't know about that. Let's be… all right. That's it right. You're intuitive. Yes. Not… That doesn't that doesn't resonate with me. I mean, here you are with it bash shop, right? You're you're a pro bash shop. And then you're like, yeah, let's debate that a little bit, you know, but I think they enjoy that right that the idea of this is like they hire you for a reason they hire you as a consultant who come in here. It's not to be the rah rah, yes person, right? Because there's everybody can hire those. It's the guy, aha that doesn’t makes sense. What do you mean it doesn’t make sense? I'm just telling you, let me tell you why it doesn't, like I could probably I guess the thing for me, I could look at something and not realize why I don't like it. I don't go the next step and analyze it. Right? I don't go in and say okay, like what YouTube snippet as an example, like, why do I not want to click on that? Like, what is the rationale behind that? I'm trying to think how we get just like 15% of Marcus in our life, right? Where we look at some… value, right? We're not getting 100 because you know, you are who you are, but like how do I look at something other than stopping and thinking right, and being in the moment and looking at it and going okay, what's the problem here? Why am I not clicking on this? And I think the issue is, is that you know, as people we get marketed to what is it? How many like thousands of times a day or whatever the number is right? And like what point, I'm trying to think of I was a brand or an agent's like hey, we want to talk with my marketing team. And I want to like, how do you reevaluate? I mean, I think consultants are obviously great and that kind of stuff where you bring people in is kind of because you're in the middle of it, right? You're in the middle of this thing that you think is great. And all of a sudden, you but you don't have any sales, you're not sure what's going on. And obviously, with people that come in and can help with that, I'm just trying to think if I'm a brand, like when you're looking at your messaging, is there a methodology? Is there something like okay, let me read this, think about it. Of course, it's not gonna be good for everybody, but I'm just trying to think of like, once again, how can we get into that 15 maybe even a solid 20% of markets where we look at things and evaluate it and say all right, I need to really figure this out and what we think the issues are because when you explain it, it sounds simple as all get up like I feel like I could just wake up tomorrow and reevaluate everything and just go get it done. Except I probably have to you know, send a few emails and my team's probably person right now because they know this is only going to get down to a deeper project but you get my point. I'm just trying to figure out like, is there a… and I hate to say simplistic as I don't think anything about this is simplistic because the idea is you want to make it more simplistic. Which is complicated because it's, I just think, but you it's easy like for you, you're like, no, not really, I think it's not too bad. It's just, you have a different lens with right you see things as you see things and for me I'm trying to think of how I can better evaluate once in my own business or a brand can evaluate their brand better. And I guess it started with the book, but you know, I don't know, you just you have a very easy way of making it seem simplistic, which is awesome. Marcus: Yeah. Well, I really appreciate that. And these are good questions, because people don't normally ask me these questions. And then I'm just telling you that Shane, I'm serious. So you've got a great observers gift as well, I would argue. And I would say that probably the biggest element to this is I literally see the world in the form of a question. So let me give you a couple examples of this. Just looking at on a level that we all understand, which is a child parent. Most parents today if a child comes up to them and ask them a question, most parents today give an answer. Question why, like, why do most parents give an answer? There are two reasons. The easy answer or the easy reason that a lot of people would initially say is trying to be efficient quick, right? It's true. It's actually not the fundamental reason why most parents today, do it. Most parents today do it. Because inherently, they want their child to believe that they're smart. Absolutely. Now, my kids, they're screwed up in a really good way. Okay? Because I have four children, oldest is 18, youngest is nine, three girls one boy, they know that if they come to me with question, we're going to go on a journey together. Now, it's not a situation where they come to me and say, Hey, Dad, what is such and such? And I say, why do you think it is? Because that's not what I'm talking about here. But usually, the answer is within each one of us and my only job as a parent is facilitate that moment of self discovery. Let me give you a crazy example. A child came to me one time said, my daughter, she says, why is it the sunrise in the morning dad? Okay, so this is a classic case of we can explain it. Or we can ask exactly the right questions so that the child has an incredible moment of self discovery. Right? So, instead of just saying, well, this is how it works, I literally with her went on this journey of I would just pose a question, and she would come back and she would say, Okay, and so and then I would pose another question, and you could tell she would have another moment and she would start to get it and then suddenly, she comes to me, Shane, like, as we're talking, she's like, I got it. I got it dad. I'm like, Okay, what is it? She's like, the sun's actually not rising. Okay? The earth is moving, which makes the sun look like it's rising. Now. Here's what's cool about that moment. She will own that as hers forever. She wasn't told by anyone that the sun actually doesn't rise. She in her mind discovered it, right? Is it possible to do this when you meet with a prospect? Is it possible to do this when you meet with a client? It's possible to do this with a team member? 100% yes. The sad reality is the one skill that as a whole, we have lost the most as a society that is not taught in university today. It's not taught in elementary, middle High School. It's not taught in the workplace is the skill and the art of effective communication. The closest thing that you see is occasionally sales teams taught on cheesy closing techniques. If you go to most salespeople and you say, are you good at asking questions, they'll say yes. If you do an exercise or an activity where they're forced to just ask questions to help a prospect, you'll see that 90 plus percent fail. It's not what they have. And so when I look at something, I'm asking myself a series of questions, not just out of curiosity, and really trying to understand, I'm really trying to say, why is that right now the way that it is, when I am with an audience going to walk them through a journey by asking them questions, and they're generally going to discover what I'm going to like, is not my goal to tell them is my goal to help them discover that thing that I want to tell them without me actually telling it to them. Now, it's hard to do this, necessarily, let's say in a podcast format, right? Because it's a different medium, and we can't do it the same way. But if this was, I could see the audience, it would have been in conversation the whole time with me in the audience, so that they keep having those moments of self discovery versus Oh, yeah, I heard it from Marcus, it must be true. Because that's not the end goal. Because again, I'm not trying to sound smart. I don't want the audience to ever worship me, I don’t want the client ever worship me. I want the audience or the client or the child in my case to say, who's the hero here, the one that figured it out for themselves, right? And it also goes back to that intrinsic element of when we feel we have discovered it, we own it, and it's going to be ours. And we just might do it for long terms, right, it might become a part of who we are. If we feel like it was forced on us, then it's not nearly as effective. So in other words, here's a quick litmus test, again, that you can do on this. If your kids or if your coworkers or if your clients or your prospects are consistently saying to you, yeah, you're right. You're right. Yeah, that's what we need to do. That means you have failed to induce a moment of discovery with them. But if you consistently hear from those that you engage with every day, if you consistently hear them say, wait a second, I know what we need to do. Now that means you are a world class communicator. Shane: Yeah, I mean, I'm with you, man, the communication thing is just, because you think about it, that's what we do all the time is communicate right and not understanding how to do that effectively is pretty crazy. If you think about it because it is true, with Universities and stuff like that. I mean, it's not a big thing that's touched on, right? I mean, maybe a little bit in psychology. Marcus: It’s a major problem. In my agency, I have 100% college grads. And the biggest problem that I have is helping them communicate in a way that they're on par always with the client or the prospect, it is easily our biggest problem as a company. And when there is a feeling of not being on par with each other. That's when you as the company, you end up saying yes, we more than you should you don't push back when you should. And all because you are fearful of losing the prospect or losing the relationship versus knowing that if we're on equal plane here, if I say something with love and respect that is contrary to what they believe. And if I do it in the right context, they're going to really appreciate it. And so this is the skill set. That is the great lost art and I don't for the life of me understand why we don't spend way more time talking about it. And marketers have the same issue because we're all we're doing is communicating, right? We're just doing it in different formats. We're doing it on video, we're doing it in an article, it's like, but the principles are just tied together. It's like what causes you to read the first two paragraphs of something and say, I'm into this, I like this company. I like how this feels, what causes you to watch a video, and within the first 30 seconds, say, I really like this person, something about them. What causes you to do the same thing? When you were listening to this podcast today? That made you say, I either like this person or I don't. These are all elements of simply the way that you're communicating in the moment, right? And, again, you don't read about it. You don't hear about it. It's not taught nearly enough. And this I really believe it's a great tragedy. Shane: I do too. I can answer the thing about the podcast. It's my methodical voice. My voice is just very, that's the reason why people listen my podcast I mean, I think it Marcus: No doubt, no doubt. Shane: I mean, I really am, I'm not, my guests are amazing, you know, and it couldn't be because of my red beard because it's a podcast. So nobody, I mean, half the people don't even know I have a red beard, so that's, you know, so as much as I'm joking around you know, do you have a hard time sleeping at night because, you've got a you know, how big of a, you gotta change your world, my friend like we have that's gonna be, it’s a big ship. I'm being a little facetious, but I am like for you, because at once again, I think it's your trainings, and it's the stuff that you've done. You got some books out, and I think we should probably touch on that a little bit. But let's say, okay, I'm just saying, Listen, what's gonna be more like Marcus, reading the books? Is it like and then what is, I'm just trying to think about because I think what you've touched on, you've opened my eyes a lot in regards to this conversation, this podcast that we've done, and I'm just trying to think like, what are the next steps other than like, what you're looking at? I know we talked about the book, and you have some self help books and stuff like that. I know, with the organization, you know, it's like trying to get people to understand how to better communicate. Is there a book other than yours and I’m gonna want to recommend yours as well. Another book that you read that you're like, God, this is great. I mean, it just, you know, you just even like that natural gift. And that's the hard part. Like I said, how do we tap into? And I know it's not a book's gonna make us you come out and all of a sudden you're like Marcus I or something? You know, it's like, read your blog. I don't know. I mean, Marcus: Yeah, you know, this is a frustrating thing for me, I have started to teach a lot more about communication. A lot of people don't know me for that. They know me for sales and marketing. And they know me as the pool guy, what I'm most inherently passionate about is transformative communication, in the home, in the office and on the stage. And because that's where you see this unbelievable domino effect that can change lives, like generational influence that it can have. I've seen it. I got to share this one personal story with you if that's okay. By the way, I don't have a book. I wish I did. I wish I could recommend one right now. I always tell people my favorite book is how to win friends and influence people. I think it's one of the great books of all time. Sure. I think everybody should read it at least once every couple years. And you know, it's beautiful because it's really old. By this point, it was probably almost 100 years old. And it still is true today as it was when it was written. That's how, you know, truth. So I had an experience last week when I was teaching at a conference, and I was teaching on communication, and a gentleman comes up to me, when I'm done. I'm packing up, he says, can I have a personal conversation with you? Okay, sure. Let's do it, goes off to the side and what I'm about to say, hey, Shane sounds odd. But stay with me because it's going to make sense. I think by the end, he says me. So Marcus, I was here with my wife today because I called on him while I was talking, and I noticed him and his wife. He said, my wife and I, we were divorced at one time, and we've been back together for a while. But she does something that really, really bothers me a lot. And I don't want it to bother me, but it really, really bothers me. He said, she bites her nails, and she does it and it gets under my skin and She does it at the wrong times, and it's just driving me crazy. Alright, so we'll take a timeout from the story. So what would most people do in this moment? How would most people answer this question? Plus, you have to ask yourself now why is he coming to me and asking me this right now? I’m not necessarily a counselor by any stretch, right? But it's just heard me talk about communication. And so he asked me this. And hopefully, if you're listening this right now you are going to think to yourself, okay, here's what I would have said, here's what I said. Was there ever a time when she wasn't biting her nails? And he said, well, now that you mentioned it, she stopped for about two years after we got back together. That's when I said ahhh, now it's clear. Now it's clear. And to make this story really short, I said to him, I promise you this. During that two year period, you were so invested in her to make her feel loved to make her feel important to make her feel wanted, weren't you? He said yes. So my guess is you're probably not doing that today are you? He said no. I said, if you go back to who you were, then I promise you, she will stop chewing her nails within the next six months. But this is all on you. And literally Shane, he's sobbing by this point. He sobbing, he nods to me and he walks away. That's it. That's it. So there's a couple things about this story. And it's just on my mind, because it happened last week. I had these things happen a lot. And the only way somebody asked you that question is if they don't feel threatened, if they don't feel judgment, if we're going to be our best selves. Somehow, we have to release judgment. Not there to judge. We're there to help them judge themselves if they need to, but we're not there to do it. Okay, so he didn't feel threatened by me. He felt safe. There's a lesson for me there. See, that's the type of questions I asked myself. Why did he come to me? Not in a Yeah, he should come like why did he come right? The other thing is, a lot of people might have given answers does she get her nails done at a salon? That's one way to stop. Have you tried the formula that they use for your nails? Have you tried that nasty stuff that you can put on? We say stupid things. Yeah, say stupid things, right? But if you see the world in the form of a question where you are at least, trying to give your answer, okay? But you're really, really searching for a moment of self discovery. What happens in this context is he's able to say something like, well, there was a time when she wasn't doing it. And as soon as I hear that, now we've got our answer. We've got our answer. And he knew what he needed to do, because he realized she'd stopped because of me. And so I need to get back to that person that I was. That's the beauty of seeing the world differently. Shane: Yeah, that really is, that's actually an awesome story. Because it's, I think, really what it comes down to is when you ask the right questions, and I think just anything that comes down a good communication, right because for you, you have that for me have to think about this later of what I would have asked but it wouldn't been with you asked. Right so it's like you have this this knack for being able to evaluate things at a very, very fast, you know because obviously the person is asking the question, you can't go, you know, probably one second. Let me go ahead and think about this for a few moments. Let me turn around, and then I'll come back around and look in the eye, and I'll give you my answer. It's like, you have that for you. It's just this natural process. And that's reason why I was like, do you sleep at night, kind of being facetious, but because you naturally it's almost like the people, I'll give you, this isn't my example. So I remember Robin Williams, I remember, like seeing his comedy, I remember the way that he would deliver. A lot of people wouldn't get most of his jokes, I would watch it. And I would catch a lot of it. And I'm not saying that I'm more intelligent than other people. But I would just understand it. And he just had this knack for just building on things and saying things and for me, it was very, I was like, very in awe about the way that he did comedy because he was talking really fast. And he this and this and it was like man, you could watch it 10 times and pick up 10 different things. And he just had that talent, right. And so I think you also have that same talent of like, when the sense of just being able to, and then when I say read a book and of course we're giving you on the go read a book and you'll be like, Marcus, when you get older, that's not the deal, right? You were, you were given a talent and for you to be able to assess that, and I think it's awesome that you're out on stage, you're looking to make a bigger impact. That's not necessarily sales and marketing. That's awesome for you back there, but just what you touched on earlier, like you literally could impact lives and impact, like generations of people if they start to do things a little differently. Think about, you know, it's like when you somebody says hey, how you are, you know, hey, have a good day. Yeah, you too, like it's all these kind of things that we just naturally say instead of really… not that you need to fully evaluate that but we don't right. It's this kind of like this little communication is like we just gotta give an answer to say something to them and make them feel this or feel that it's like but really, you seem to be something, not going to say a healer but like somebody who just really gets it like you just, you go through the layers of, I might not say bullshit but I'm going to say but like this layers of things, you kind of being able to tap into that and that's a true gift, and I think you realize that, right? That's awesome. Shane: Yeah. Right and I appreciate that. And at 41, which is how old I am today, I'm at the point where I've accepted that my calling is not always going to be sales and marketing. And, you know, I think we misconstrue labels. You know, when I was 23, or 24, a family member came to me and said, heard you started a pool company with a couple people. I said, Yeah. And she looked at me straight square in the eye, and she said, what a waste. And I thought to myself, I can't believe you just said that. Right? And of course, that pool company, that pool story has been talked about all over the world now. And that allowed me as the pool guy that was the step to become what might be considered a sales and marketing speaker. And that took me all over the world to the point where I started having people ask me other questions. I knew that there's more here to unpack, which will lead to the next phase, which is communication. So my 20s was about swimming pools. My 30s was about sales and marketing. I think my 40s it's going to be heavy into communication, right? And that's why we have to be careful about thinking we understand exactly where this all is supposed to go and how we're supposed to get there. You know, if we release that and just obsess more on am I really making progress, right? I am being my best self here? Usually those other doors that were supposed to be open, they will open at their own time. And then we'll all make sense. We'll look back and say, Oh, yeah, of course. I was supposed to be a pool guy. Shane: Well, and everything's foundational and appreciate the journey. Right? I think that's the thing is people always want to be in control of stuff. The thing is this, we're all in for this ride, right? You got to put on your seatbelt put on your helmet of this thing called life and you go through it right. And the thing is, I think it's so funny. We talked about entrepreneurs and people say oh like how to be successful. I'm like, you know, fail 1000 times and then understand what you learn from that because it's going to only going to make you stronger in the future like with whatever you do and understand that that's how you get your experience. That's what is taken me to where I'm at today where you're at today is because of our experiences, the things that have happened in our life, whether they're successful or not successful. The key to the whole thing is what have you learned from that? Right and how do you take to the next level? I think I love the 20s was pool, because that's my biggest thing. When I look to your background, I was like, he was doing pools for 17 years like how does that transition to what you're doing? I think there's a huge disconnect, but obviously I'm sure you get that from everybody. This is going to be one of my final questions for you. So you said that was your aunt that said that to you about the pool thing said what a waste? Marcus: It was a family member, yes, it was a family member. Shane: Did that family member come back and ask you for a discounted pool over time. Tell me they did, did they not? Marcus: Never never came back, but I got a feeling she certainly a crow just realized but who knows. But I only say it not because it bothers me today, I’m really grateful she said it right. Because now Mike Oh, that's a beautiful thing to hear to be a stimulus. Helps me recognize that it's not so much the label at all. Because what an honor it is. We’ve have people today say, do you mind telling the pool guy story again? I know you've said it a million times Marcus. I'm like, how would I ever mind that. It is such a foundational element of my life, I'll always be a pool guy. Even though I don't sell pools anymore. I'll always be a pool guy. And I'm thrilled with that. Shane: Yeah is awesome man. I think you got a great great story man. You got a good vibe about you. How could if anybody wants because we're at the end of this thing. I gotta be honest. I feel like I should come over your house and we should smoke a cigar and then talk about life for weeks together, but except I know you're traveling so we can't do that. But if anybody needs to get in contact with you tell us about where they can pick up the books any other emails fun stuff, Twitter, Facebook where yeah? Marcus: So you can email me directly, I always love hearing from people directly it's email@example.com. They ask you answer is, of course available on all the majors online. It's got a revised version that just came out last month. So make sure you look for the revised version, the audio book, the current one is not me, but the next one that's coming out, which will be available in about six, seven weeks for the revised version that is my voice and so I just want to give you a heads up if you're listening to that. But please email me directly if you have any questions. If you need any guidance or you want to talk about any of that sales, marketing, whatever stuff, trainings, all that jazz, I'm happy to help you. Shane: Sounds like a plan. Marcus was awesome having you on the podcast today my friend I appreciate you taking the time today. And once again if anybody needs to get in contact with Marcus we have that information will include that in the blog post below will have all the all the juicy information of how to get Marcus's book and how to get in contact with him. Thanks, man. Marcus: You're welcome.